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[edit] Gaelic

Gaelic typography is not blackletter nor sans-serif. It is a class of its own. The fact that its letterforms are Insular rather than Carolingian is a part of this. There are several books on Irish type design, and the other terms (Blackletter, Slab Serif, Traditional, etc) are never applied to it. See Gaelic script where I am adding some bibliography (Lynham and McGuinne; also my own external page on classification of Gaelic typefaces). I don't mind what order "Gaelic" appears in the template, but appear it should. -- Evertype·✆ 20:24, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Could you give me a citation to a general typography text that includes "Gaelic" as a classification? I'll go back and double check my references later tonight (I've got The Thames and Hudson Manual of Typography, Typography: A Manual of Design, Typographic Design: Form and Communication and a few other). I really don't remember ever seeing "Gaelic" listed as a classification type and it is not part of VOX-ATypI classification, and if we do that here it would be original research (unless we have sources to back it up). That said, if it fits in well in another section, or if we have other similar articles and could create a new section, I would not oppose at all placing that link somewhere else in the template. I just thought it was odd to place it in a classification where it clearly isn't one of the major classification (and if my memory serves me right, isn't a classification at all). That's where I'm coming from, so hopefully we can reach an agreement! --Andrew c ^[talk] 22:31, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

• Lynam, E. W. 1969. The Irish character in print: 1571–1923. New York: Barnes & Noble. First printed as Oxford University Press offprint 1924 in Transactions of the Bibliographical Society, 4th Series, Vol. IV, No. 4, March 1924.)
• McGuinne, Dermot. Irish type design: A history of printing types in the Irish character. Blackrock: Irish Academic Press. ISBN 0-7165-2463-5

It would not be surprising to find that mainstream typographic analysis has overlooked the Gaelic types. That does not mean it is not a valid category. If Vox-AtypI hasn't recognized it, that is doubtless due to inattention (and the relative rarity of Gaelic typefaces). I'm really not trying to push a POV here, but they are not the only authority (see the two books I refer to above, both of which describe "the Irish character". With regard to the T&H manual. for instance... note that they haven't mentioned Irish typefaces at all. They haven't categorized them as Blackletter or Antiqua or whatever. They've been ignored. I think that because of Insular v. Carolingian letterforms, Gaelic" is a valid classification. -- Evertype·✆ 23:26, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Those seem like interesting texts, and I'd like to get my hands on them for my own knowledge. That said, looking at Image:Gaelic-fonts.png, it seems obvious to me that "Gealic Script" is not a classification (especially take note of Doire). What is the relationship between thick and thin in this classification? What is the relationship between horizontal and vertical strokes? How are the serif's characterized? What is the general x-height? What is the axis/tilt? Looking at the 4 faces displayed in that image, I simply cannot answer any of those questions, and I am quite familiar with those concepts. Why can't I answer those questions? Because those faces are so completely different that they transcended (or defy) a single classification. The "e" character generally has a horizontal crossbar, but Corcaigh doesn't. Doire has uniform stroke weight and no serifs, while the others have varying degrees of high contrast between thicks and thins and varying classifications of serif. This is a little confusing, because terms like uncial, half-uncial, miniscule, etc are useful in script (handwriting) classification, and in varying degrees type classification. However, "Gaelic Script" is not useful in type classification. It is a generalized term to refer to the script (character set) used by a language. This script is clearly derivative of the Latin script (and is often classified as a variant of Latin), more specifically from the half-uncial writings in various manuscripts (c. 9th century Irish manuscript culture). But like any other script, typefaces written in, for example Cyrillic, can be classified in numerous ways (as your image demonstrates). I think your frank statement It would not be surprising to find that mainstream typographic analysis has overlooked the Gaelic types. is important, because it brings up weight issues. If no mainstream text uses this classification, is it not giving one non-mainstream view undue weight? This is really fascinating to me, and I do intend to do more research. I have a number of interesting questions in my head.-Andrew c ^[talk] 01:10, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

They are interesting texts and should be available on ABE. But looking ata Image:Gebrochene_Schriften.png, I find that you would have the same problem with classification. You've got round o's and squared o's, two-tier a's and script a's, regular S's and cinnamon-bun S's, and so on throughout the rest of the alphabet. I think that Blackletter and Gaelic are both defined in opposition to Antiqua. I do not think, however, that a minority view is non-mainstream. My comment meant that since Gaelic typefaces were only really seen and developed in Ireland, it was ignored by the mainstream. That's an oversight on the mainstream's part, not a reason to exclude the style from (in this case) this template. This is a fascinating discussion; perhaps it will generate an improvement of the Gaelic script article. -- Evertype·✆ 09:49, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Browsing through a large number of typographic texts, and checking out Irish Type Design and reading the last chapter, I am now completely convinced that Gaelic script is not a type classification. Fry treated it as a foreign face along with Hebrew, Greek, Arabic, etc. If there is a specific page in Irish Type Design you'd like to draw my attention to which argues that Gaelic script is a type classification as opposed to a language character set, please do so. If not, I don't believe we have any reliable sources that argue this point. When you say That's an oversight on the mainstream's part, not a reason to exclude the style from (in this case) this template, it makes me think of WEIGHT issues. Wikipedia is not the place to try to correct the wrongs of the mainstream, and I am convinced now that including Gaelic script as a type classification is not only giving one view too much undue weight, it is in fact simply not supported by any source what so ever. Again, if I am wrong about this, direct me to a specific page, or quote a source that argues this point. Anyway, I'm glad I found this book, and I'll be reading more of it and probably adding more to the "Gaelic script" article (though I'm questioning if that is the best name for the article....) Cheers! -Andrew c ^[talk] 00:00, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

You're "completely convinced" after browsing? Gosh, my opinion has been formed after a decade and a half of working with Irish typefaces. :-| Fry's type appeared in 1819, and I venture to suggest that in 1819 the classification of typefaces as we know it was hardly applicable. The description of the replacement of Gaelic type by Roman type in the final chapter of McGuinne is in every way analogous to the way in which German blackletter was replaced by Roman. You've asked for a page in McGuinne "arguing" that "Gaelic script is a type classification as opposed to a language character set". Now there are two things wrong with this. First, it was no McGuinne's intent two make such an argument. Second, you've opposed "type classification" against "a language character set" and the two things are in no way equivalent. The former compares typefaces, and assigns categories to them according to shape characteristics. The latter is a collection of letters. (I venture to suggest that I may know better what a character set is than you may.) While it is my observation that mainstream typographic analysis may have overlooked the existence of Gaelic types, that does not mean I am the only one to have noticed it. McGuinne p. 3: "The development of these printing types has attracted the attention of many scholars over the years, but few have examined it in its entirety." Even if no scholars attempted to fit Gaelic typefaces into their traditional classification of typefaces, that does not imply that Gaelic typefaces are not a unique category for such a classification. For you to be "convinced" that including Gaelic script as a type classification is a mistake, you would have to demonstrate how Gaelic script typefaces should be classified. They are not Blackletter (though they may share some features with it). They are not Antiqua (though they may share some features with it). They may or may not have serifs. Etc. And yet they are immediately recognizable. They are clearly a class of their own, apart from the others, and there are subclassifications within that class which have been identified. So... I dispute your suggestion that this is a question of "WEIGHT", and what the Wikipedia is for, in this instance. As I said, the whole argument about Gaelic v. Roman is the same as the argument about Fraktur v. Antiqua; if Blackletter has previously been classified but Gaelic has not, that is only indicative of the fact that the mainstream overlooked Gaelic typography. (The burden is on you, I believe, to show some mainstream classifier identifying the correct place for putting Gaelic types.) Finally—and thanks by the way for the stimulating conversation—"Gaelic script" is to cló Gaelach as "Roman script" is to cló Rómhánach. -- Evertype·✆ 10:07, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Your comparison to Blackletter is interesting to some extent. However, it is purely original research. Wikipedia has to be backed by sources. From what I have gathered, when Gaelic scripts are used for Irish (or related languages), they are generally considered foreign scripts, like Greek/Cyrillic. As the 2nd to last chapter of the McGuinne book states, the typographers from the early 20th century treated Gaelic script without the special characters as a display face for non-Irish, roman typesetting. Text fonts were not produced by those foundries. Therefore, I would concede that Gaelic script could reasonably be placed in either classification depending on the circumstance. However, we don't have sources that use this as a seperate classification (even if we can agree that there are some comparison points between it and Blackletter, although I'd argue that the ubiquity of Blackletter faces from the first western movable type presses, up through the centuries makes it clear why scholars have treated it much differently than Gealic script. You know more about this subject than me, clearly. However, you also seem to have a conflict of interest, and seem to be trying to push a fringe if not completely original theory here. Please keep in mind basic wikipedia principals. With them under consideration, I don't see how we can in all earnesty call Gaelic type a "classification". But I'm clearly open and willing to include the link somewhere else in the template. Unless we have new reliable sources that back up the classification hypothesis, I suggest we move on past that argument, and try to find a new home for the link in this template. -Andrew c ^[talk] 15:15, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I think you reverted the Template too quickly. Discussion is not over. I also think that you are interpreting "original research" far too broadly. (I am not new to the Wikipedia nor to its principles.) For instance, you use the word "purely" alongside "original research" (a weasel word, and you say that it is a "theory" and "hypothesis" that Gaelic type is a different classification. I don't believe that either of those latter two words are relevant to "original research". I am, as you pointed out, an expert, and indeed my classification of Gaelic typefaces was published four years before I ever came to the Wikipedia. It is referenced on the Gaelic script page. Now, I'm not averse to continuing discussion of this, but I dispute your analysis completely. Whether Gaelic faces are used for text or for display is irrelevant. Fraktur faces are now no longer used for text, but rather for display. Yet the classification of them as different from the varieties of Antiqua or Roman type is there. Your argument about ubiquity is false: you state that the ubiquity caused scholars to "treat" Blackletter "differently" than Gaelic. This does not follow. They simply ignored the Gaelic faces. They didn't treat them at all. They didn't say "lump these in with thus-and-such other category". And indeed on the contrary, we do have three scholars who have treated Gaelic faces separately from Roman and Blackletter: Lynam, McGuinne, and (with apologies) me. Lynam notes that both "the Black Letter" and "the Irish letter" are analogous and were replaced by Roman type (p. 3). He does not classify Gaelic as Blackletter, and he keeps them both distinct from Antiqua. I have a number of type specimen books in German which distinguish Irish from other types. Faulmann 1888 describes Gutenberg's Bibelschrift, and then classifies Antiqua (Roman), Cursiv (Italic), Fraktur, Schwabacher, and "Neuere Französiche Typen" (Garamond, Etienne, Didot) (pp. 203-206). He treats Irish manuscript hand on p. 196 and gives an example of rectified Petrie type on p. 200, stating that it is "eine der Antiquaform sich nähernde Umbildungen der älteren eckigen Schrift" 'one of the transformations of the older square script which approaches Antiqua letterforms'. Note: he distinguishes Irish from Antiqua. There is a hole in the classification, and that hole's name is "Gaelic". If we do not fill the hole, we have no way to describe Gaelic typography. I do not consider this to be "original research" done on the Wikipedia, even if I have "an interest". Nor is the suggestion "fringe", a word which tends to reflect disreputableness. -- Evertype·✆ 17:41, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

As for the blackletter example, this image shows the 4 major sub-classifications. We'd expect variation between subclassifications. As the name suggests, Rotunda forms are more rounded.-Andrew c ^[talk] 00:05, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

We do have variation between subclassifications of Gaelic type. My article Gaelic Typefaces: History and Classification has been available since June 2000. -- Evertype·✆ 10:46, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

For what it is worth, Luc Devroye's "Irish Font Scene" web page has adopted the subclassification in my Gaelic Typefaces article. -- Evertype·✆ 20:39, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] More Gaelic: thinking laterally

I would have no objection to taking this discussion elsewhere or to inviting people hither. But to go up to the top of this discussion, I note that you asked this: Could you give me a citation to a general typography text that includes "Gaelic" as a classification? Well, I think that it is unreasonable to insist that a citation be found in a general typography text for it to be legitimate. In specialist typography texts we do find Gaelic types distinguished from Blackletter types and from Roman types. Surely specialist texts are admissible. We have further subclassifications within each of those major forms of Latin-script typography. Perhaps it is in that direction that the template should develop. Currently it says Classifications: Blackletter · Old style · Transitional · Modern · Slab serif · Sans-serif · Gaelic but in fact the middle 5 are subdivisions of Antiqua. -- Evertype·✆ 17:44, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I was having a look at User:Markreidyhp/wpie_navbox2 where the section on Counties has two subsections, Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. I wonder if "classification" here could not be eventually re-cast thus:

Would that be a direction forward? It is certainly more accurate with regard to Blackletter and Roman. -- Evertype·✆ 17:04, 16 November 2008 (UTC)