Template talk:Empires

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[edit] Useful? Just a hobby?

I question the usefulness of this template. It is just a hodgepodge of various entities called, formally or informally, academically or popularly, with or without justification, as "empires". Some are practically Wikipedianism (i.e. "Frankish Empire") and some are not linked to an article on an Empire (i.e. "Carthaginean Empire"). Even the headings "Middle Ages Empires" (should be medieval), "Modern Global Empires" (what makes these especially global?), and "Late Modern Empires" (who says this is the late modern era?) are odd. What is the purpose of this template? Srnec (talk) 15:20, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I would add a voice here, and don't see it overall as very useful. Maybe that's too negative; it is a popular encyclopedia, and its logical enough that if you're reading about the Roman Empire you might reach the end of the article and then be pointed on to some other Empires to read about. Brando130 (talk) 17:25, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I did the expansion, but did not creat it. I just though that if it exist, then it should list all major empires, and not just a selection. The Ogre (talk) 16:57, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I have to say that i think that this template belongs to someones userpage rather than on Wikipedia articles. Just my thought though..Gabagool (talk) 19:23, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I have removed group 6

If this is going to be a mainstream template appearing on all of these articles, group 6 must be removed on the grounds that it contains controversial, unestablished elements. E.g. potential controversy over whether to consider America an empire, or whether Nazi Germany is a useful link on the list. Brando130 (talk) 16:05, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Again, agreed, I just followed up on the precedent logic. The Ogre (talk) 16:57, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Groups 4 & 5

I think, however, that group should not be called "Early modern Empires", since some of them are from the seconf half of the 19th century. On the other hand group 5 does list empire considered Global empires (and yes, I known wikipedia is not a source). Why not change the order and calling them "Global modern Empires" and "Other Modrn Empires"? The Ogre (talk) 17:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your good faith, its refreshing. The categorization could be based on 'Global empires'; though I'm hesitant to do so without at least one good source (nothing I have on hand, and as you said, wiki is no source) - that would be fine. Another option is to simply organize the empires to fit the new Early modern / modern scheme, as these are common terms and more historically appropriate than "late modern" was; the latter being a term that usually refers to art. I probably should have done that anyway as the one who changed the names. Brando130 (talk) 17:15, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

You see, for me, the problem with the Early Modern / Modern scheme is that I do not know were to place some empire that started in the early modern age and ended recentely (take the Portuguese Empire - from 1410 to 1999), or some other that had a brief existence, let's say, in the 19th century, like the Empire of Brazil (1822 to 1889). The Ogre (talk) 17:46, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Ya, its not very clear cut, is it. Another possible division could be to separate the 'Colonial empires', as this would also be more common, sourcable phrasing. Something like Colonial empires / Modern empires, or modern era empires. Brando130 (talk) 17:59, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] American Empire

American Empire? J. D. Redding 17:37, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

The group American Empire - Soviet Empire - Japanese empire - Italian Colonial Empire - Nazi Germany was removed per talk above. The Ogre (talk) 17:43, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok. Thanks. J. D. Redding 17:54, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Just to clarify, regarding American empire and such, highly controversial additions will not help this template gain mainstream acceptance, nor should they. It is not the accepted norm to call America an Empire, but rather a highly debated topic with many proponents on both sides. In addition, the American Empire article isn't even about the history of the so-called American Empire - its about the term itself and the reasons to even call America an Empire; for the American equivalent of Roman Empire, for example, you would need to link to History of the United States. Brando130 (talk) 17:59, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I understand. I understood. Thanks for stating it though. J. D. Redding 15:39, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kushan Empire

Shouldn't the Kushan Empire be added to the list of ancient empires, chronologically between the Mauryan Empire and the Gupta Empire? Nice template by the way. Cheers PHG (talk) 05:09, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

And of course, of course, Parthian Empire. PHG (talk) 05:22, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

There is also a group of possibly less important empires in ancient India: Nanda empire, Sunga Empire, Satavahana empire, Pala Empire, Hoysala Empire, Western Chalukya Empire which altogether might justify a special grouping. For the Medieval period: Vijayanagara Empire. Cheers PHG (talk) 05:25, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Among modern empires, Japanese empire and Italian Colonial Empire should be included. PHG (talk) 05:40, 16 August 2008 (UTC)