Template talk:African American ethnicity

[edit] Nov 2006

I've created this template to facilitate access to editing on the ethnicity templates. It can be a bit daunting to have to tease out of an article what to edit in a traditional {{Ethnic group}} template format. This method allows for folks to be able to concentrate on just the infobox itself. (→Netscott) 05:55, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Text changed to match image

no Npov changes have been made. no wiki violation so pls let it b.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 00:44, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Uh, your edit summary is "replacing with real American heros with legacy and contribution to the race, offensive condi and powell two coco's". That is a textbook example of a POV edit which, if I'm not mistaken, is a violation of a core Wikipedia policy. When your edit was questioned by me, you chose to simply revert back with no discussion and the edit summary "look before you jump". Exactly - discuss potentially controversial changes before making them. Natalie 00:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Going to have to agree with Natalie here... I too understand Halaqah's edit (and on a personal level tend to support it) but templates have to abide by WP:NPOV just like any other article content. (→Netscott) 00:52, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

That is my personal explaination but the edit was ligit. I didnt change it for that reason alone. Like when i said revert clown, might violate the civility code but it doesnt make my change illegal. See the guy that added a monkey image. look b4 u jump, means see why i changed the text. Look at why the edit was made. the text matches the image.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 00:54, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I see that you have changed the text to match the image, which makes sense. I'm fine leaving it like that. But the point of an edit summary is to explain your edits, not to make some tangentially related comment. No one's personal opinions are relevant here - it's not Nataliepedia, or Halaqahpedia, or Netscottpedia. In the future, just leave an edit summary along the lines of "changed caption to match image" and all with be well. Natalie 00:58, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

(e/c) I see the point, someone's changed the image and the text below doesn't match the new image. I believe there was a previoius image showing those individuals... but per the image displaing now Halaqah's edit is correct. (→Netscott) 00:59, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Include AAVE under language?

Would it make sense to include African American Vernacular English in addition to American English under the "Languages" heading of the template? (As context, AAVE's listed under the "Languages" heading on Template:African American topics sidebar, alongside English, Gullah, and Creole.) - Anirvan 18:36, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I say list it as an American English dialect. ---Mel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.159.98.1 (talk) 01:51, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Third Line of Photos

Many ethnicity templates are now including a third line of renowned members photos. It seems appropriate to do the same for the African Americans template. Without a doubt, Colin Powell should be included. Powell was the highest ranked African American in the history of American government as the first black US Secretary of State and he was also the first black Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the highest military official in America. It is also very sensible to include Condoleezza Rice since she is the first black woman to serve as Secretary of State and only the second black Secretary of State after Powell. One can't reasonably say that Rosa Parks, for instance, who, while important in the civil rights movement, is as consequential as either Powell or Rice (while the other civil rights leaders -Dr. King, Malcolm X, W.E.B. DuBois- are much more important). The third spot on the new line should probably include one of Thurgood Marshall, the first black member of the Supreme Court of the United States; Jesse Jackson, the first competitive candidate for a major party nomination for President of the United States; Ralph Bunche, the first black recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize; Guy Bluford, the first African American in space; Hattie McDaniel, Sidney Poitier, Count Basie, or Ella Fitzgerald, all firsts and leaders in entertainment; Toni Morrison, the only African American author to win the Nobel Prize for Literature; DeHart Hubbard, Alice Coachman, Jackie Robinson, Althea Gibson, or Tiger Woods, who each paved the way for African Americans in sports (I'd have to caution those who think Tiger Woods is best -- while he might be best, we should remember we are judging his impact from today's point of view and, as such, I think an historic candidate is probably best); Booker T. Washington, pioneer in education; or Madam C. J. Walker, the first black millionaire.

So we definitely have Colin Powell. Do we have Condoleezza Rice? I think to fail to include her would be not only short-sighted, but also a non-NPOV to the point of being stupid. But we'll see what folks think. Who should be the third? FEastman (talk) 14:32, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree that we need a third line of photos. Take a look at White American (two lines) or Jew (one line). I think simpler is better.

But if consensus is for three lines... (a) the photos should be in black and white, like the others in the template and (b) I think contemporary figures should be avoided (short-sighted and NPOV, as you wrote). — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 16:57, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I have no opinion on having a third line. but I do wonder how we would define contemporary. Also, could we try to have photos from a variety of types of achievements? Right now the people on the template are mostly political figures. Perhaps we should branch out a bit and include people from different fields. Science, education, fine arts, and athletics would be good places to start. Natalie (talk) 17:44, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree that a broader range of accomplishments might be more appropriate. I would consider people who are still in the public eye to be contemporary. Edward Brooke, who I was surprised to learn is still alive, is fine. Powell, who is retired, would probably be good. Rice or Obama or Tiger Woods, probably not. But that's just my opinion.

One other thing. From a strictly aesthetic point of view, pictures on the far right should face left; that is, they should face the text of the article and not the edge of the computer screen. (This is recommended in WP:MOS#Images, and it makes good sense.) — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs)

That makes sense. Thinking about it a little further, I think we should also try to represent a few more time periods, since at the moment we only have twentieth century figures, and perhaps find another woman. Since we're essentially trying to represent the totality of African Americans through 6-9 pictures, having the most variety we can would express, IMO, the great diversity among African Americans. I think your standard for contemporary seems fine.

So who are some other people we could diversify the template with? Some people I think we should consider are Arthur Ashe, Jesse Owens, or Muhammad Ali for an athlete; Richard Wright, Zora Neale Hurston, or Phyllis Wheatley for writers; and Benjamin Banneker for a scientist/inventor. My knowledge of notable educators and artists is pretty slim, so I'm not sure who some good choices for that would be. And I haven't actually checked to see if we have pictures of these people. Natalie (talk) 23:22, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay, we have good pictures of Owens, Ali, Wright, Hurston, and Wheatley, a not too great photo of Banneker, and no photo of Arthur Ashe. Natalie (talk) 23:24, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

If a consensus develops that Banneker should be included, we'll get a better picture of him. [1] [2] [3] — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 23:38, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I might replace the picture on the article with one of those. Natalie (talk) 00:15, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] First African-American presidential nominee

Could you explain your opposition, Malik? You immediately reverted without so much as a mention here or on my User Talk page. Shem^(talk) 05:13, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I thought my edit summary was sufficient discussion ("Please discuss changes on the Talk page"), and I'm sorry if it wasn't. As you can see from the preceding section, there isn't agreement about whose pictures should be included in the infobox. Some people want Condoleezza Rice and you want Barack Obama. I'd prefer (a) if we try to reach consensus before making spur-of-the-moment changes ("Sorry, have you not seen the news tonight?") and (b) if we keep partisan politics out of the template.

Obama is clearly a historical figure, but so was Edward Brooke, the senator whose picture you removed (do you even know who he is?). Obama is also running for public office, and his appearance in the infobox may seem to some readers to be an endorsement of his candidacy. I think staying away from people who are active in today's politics — which means Rice and Obama — is the best course. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 05:25, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

"Do you even know who he is?"

Is it your default reaction to drop veiled insults toward those whose changes you dislike? Shem^(talk) 05:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

"Sorry, have you not seen the news tonight?"

No, is it yours? — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 15:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

yeah but edward brooks is a republican it says. we need to have Barrack Obama pictures there because he is now the most important African american who there is, what do we have to talk for to give a picture of him? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Awdacityofluv (talk • contribs) 06:04, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

hello?? dont you care? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Awdacityofluv (talk • contribs) 06:06, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Obama is not "Afro," he's middle eastern and white. So he dosen't belong here... bls24.19.185.80 (talk) 23:05, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hispanic

What the hell do Hispanics have to do with this? I'm erasing it. Fclass (talk) 23:16, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] picture

how can you get the picture changed sense their missing Obama and Edward Brooks was a republican? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Awdacityofluv (talk • contribs) 05:59, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] why

why doesnt it show up here —Preceding unsigned comment added by Awdacityofluv (talk • contribs) 06:00, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Malik Shabazz & Therock40756 Edit-war Discussion

My position is simple, Barack Obama and Condolezza Rice are clearly the most widely known African Americans. They are known on a national and international stage but there is hardly any mention of them on the AFRICAN AMERICAN wiki-page. Shabazz claims that there was a consensus that Obama should not appear on the page until after the campaigan is over on the bases that, "the page shouldnt endorse a candidate". Not only does that arguement make no sense considering Obama appears on several wiki pages, but Obama pic was still posted on the page for several months while this so called consensus had been agreed upon. I simply moved the photo to the top of the page, and now all of sudden the brings up something about a "consensus".

Another reason why some of the photos should be changed is because those pictures are all of liberal African Americans from the civil rights movement, there are no conservative blacks. There are no MODEREN African Americans everyone of the figures in those photos are DEAD. I simply as for a balance with conservative African Americans and African Americans from the moderen era. I am willing to compromise Obama and Condi Rice dont have to be in the main photos but they should be some where on the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Therock40756 (talk • contribs) 00:37, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

There has been discussion both on this page and at Talk:African American about expanding the number of pictures and including a more diverse group of people, including people with accomplishments in fields beside civil rights and politics. But the consensus has been clear that including Obama at the top of the page might seem like a political endorsement.

I'm going to ask some of the people who have commented on the montage in the past to add their views. I hope we can find an amicable resolution to this disagreement. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 01:22, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

PS: I'll repeat here what I wrote on your Talk page: your talk about liberals and conservatives is bunk. The people in the current montage weren't all liberals, and Obama — whose picture you want to add — is a liberal. So please don't bother with that false line of reasoning. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 01:25, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

All of the pictures are of civil rights leaders from the 1950s/60s. African-Americans have done many different things at many different times. Zazaban (talk) 05:10, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I haven't been following the discussion but Malik Shabazz asked me on my talk page to make a comment. I think that adding someone who is currently running for the presidency of the United States would be a poor choice. In Obama's case it would be a particularly poor choice, since has status as an African American is a matter of some controversy, since some people define African American in terms of having an ancestor who came through the Middle Passage and he did not. Condi Rice would be less problematic, but I'd still try to avoid a current politician.

As for "There are no MODEREN (sic) African Americans", the modern era did not begin in the last 20 minutes. All but two of the people depicted were born in the 20th century. Rosa Parks died very recently. I think it is often best if these montages stick to people who are no longer alive. I believe if you look around at the images used in montages for other ethnicities that is what you will usually find.

Has anyone considered Zora Neale Hurston? Marian Anderson? Booker T. Washington as something of a balance to DuBois? As for living people, if sheer fame is the issue, Muhammad Ali would be right up there with any of these people (admittedly, with Malcolm X, that would make two people associated with the NOI). And Toni Morrison is as unquestionably notable. - Jmabel | Talk 05:43, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok Malik Jmabel and Zazaban, here is my proposal. I strongly disagree we only include people who are dead but after reading much discussion on these photos I believe its almost a consensus that it should be expanded to NINE photos.I fully understand peoples concern about Baracks background, so I suggest we 1) Expand top photos to NINE African Americans those being --Martin L. King, Condolezza Rice, Malcolm X, Colin Powell, Micheal Jackson, Dr Ben Carson, Beyonce Knowles, Fredrick Douglass, and WEB Dubois and have them in COLOR. ( 2) Include a photo of the Obama FAMILY (i.e. Him, his wife, and kids together) somewhere in the article. I could see this being squeezed in the Politics and Social issues section. By virtue of Michelle his family is "ethnically" African American. Are there any disagreements with these changes? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Therock40756 (talk • contribs) 06:22, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

One problem with using living people is getting "free" pictures to use in the template. We can't use "fair use" pictures.

You might be able to crop a decent head shot out of Image:Beyonce Opening Concert Tour.jpg, but Wikipedia doesn't have a free picture of Ben Carson. (No free picture of Toni Morrison either.) The pictures of Michael Jackson are, to be honest, crappy.

For Condoleezza Rice I think we should use Image:Condoleezza Rice cropped.jpg and not the odd-looking picture you've been using.

Wikipedia doesn't have a picture of the Obama family, so we can't use one in the article.

Finally, I think we should wait a little while for input from more editors. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 14:39, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Michael Jackson is a terrible choice. He's a living person almost as well known for scandal as for achievement; much of his plastic surgery can be seen as constituting a denial of, or shame about, his ethnic origin. If we are going to have a male pop star, he's really a bad one to choose. - Jmabel | Talk 16:14, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Obama family photo

Jmable, its widley known that MJ has vitiligo(sp?). Anyway there is an Obama Family photo here Image:Flickr Obama Springfield 01.jpg, I believe this should be placed some where in the article. In place of MJ, perhaps a hip-hop or R&B artist (Jay-Z, Diddy, Chris Brown, Usher) Im flexible. In place of Ben Carson I suggest Robert Curbeam. Lets give until 9/22/08 if there isnt any major disagreements this is what were going with. I dont have my photo editing software anymore, so if some else can do the honors and have these changes implemented on 9/23/08 that would be a big help. If thats a problem Ill just download the software again and do it myself. Questions? Comment? Suggestions? - —Preceding unsigned comment added by Therock40756 (talk • contribs) 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Curbeam would be a good choice. For a rapper: do we have a decent picture of Chuck D anywhere? He'd be my choice in this context. - Jmabel | Talk 18:14, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I dont see any good pic of Chuck D, that pic is particularly bad b/c it has Flava Flav in the back. How about Run-D.M.C. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Therock40756 (talk • contribs) 21:38, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

The other problem with that picture is that Chuck D is hidden behind the mike. There are other photos of Chuck D on Commons. We might be able to crop one of them to get a decent head shot.

We can't use Image:Rundmc 2.jpg in the template because it's not a free image. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 21:59, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Image:Bilbao BUM Chuck D chandal.jpg could easily be cropped, if we decide he's an appropriate person to use. - Jmabel | Talk 22:05, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

• I recommend Harriet Tubman, Jackie Robinson, Miles Davis, Spike Lee, and Neil deGrasse Tyson. Each of these represents a notable contribution in a separate field, and each has nice photo that can be easily cropped. --Jleon (talk) 01:08, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

--No offense Jleon but alot of those people are very stereotypical, that was the beef with the current photos, its something we need to move away from. I mean com'on Jackie Robinson? Miles Davis would probably be better off within the article in the cultural influence section. I could see Neil deGrasse Tyson being included but he'd be bumping Robert Curbeam. I threw this pic together, five AA's from the past (black & white) and four from the present.I couldn't include Chuck D because it messed up the continuity of the photo. The person who I replaced him with was Henry Johnson (Indian Wars soldier), I thought someone like him shows the depth of AA history. If anyone believes he should be changed, it should probably be a older historical figure perferably from colonial America or perhaps slavery days. Lastly, why has the unlock date been changed from 9/23 to 9/26? I dont see any notation about why it has been extended 3 extra days. These changes are supposed to go into effect on 9/23. How do I get the admins to change the date back to 9/23? Or if we're in agreement on this photo we can just have the admin make the changes now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Therock40756 (talk • contribs) 17:30, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I admit to being a complete novice when it comes to manipulating images, but it looks like the photo of Henry Johnson was squeezed and the picture of Malcolm X was stretched. Also, is there any way to crop a "head shot" of Robert Curbeam instead of so much space suit? If not, maybe we should consider Neil deGrasse Tyson. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 05:55, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

--Dude look at Asian American the astronauts are in thier full body suit. I actually did crop a "head shot" of Curbeam but went back to the full body photo because it looked better, you could tell hes an astronaut. Ill crop the head and people can compare, but I perfer how he is now. Im a novice at manipulating photos too, if Im doing this Henry Johnson is probably as good as its gonna get. Ill try to adjust X. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Therock40756 (talk • contribs) 18:55, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Here's an alternative. Instead of making a single montage image, just size the photos and put them in the infobox:

I changed a few of the images so they're not facing the right margin. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 19:21, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

--Looks good. Just to summarize Malik the new template and Obama family photo will be added. There is a whole News Media and coverage section for one sentence so Im expanding on that with more stuff. I may do some minor switching around in the order of a paragraph or two. Oh, and that picture of Jesse Jackson is horrible..Im changing it to Jesse Jackson Jr.. And ummmm yeah, thats about it. By the way, if obama loses you have my permission to take him off the page :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Therock40756 (talk • contribs) 22:47, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

• Nice work, Malik. After the election I believe we should replace Powell with Obama. --Jleon (talk) 00:41, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

What is the reasoning for using a photograph of Beyonce? Why is an image of someone who has had an impact on black America and on music not used, e.g. Aretha, instead of a current pop personality who has been around for just a handful of years?

Also, huge NO to JLeon, Powell was a leading US general, the first black Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, the first black Secretary of State -- that is, the man who has come farther than any other in American government and military. That would be like replacing a picture of ML King with one of Jesse Jackson just because Jackson ran for president. FEastman (talk) 06:52, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I very much agree with you FEastmen I hope people will take you and my argument down the page in account when they say "consensus." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.248.192.203 (talk) 18:43, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Error on time frame of protected page

{{editprotected}}

This page should become unprotected on 9/23/08 NOT 9/26/08. Please refer to the history section for verification. Please change it back to the correct date. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Therock40756 (talk • contribs) 05:23, September 22, 2008

Don't confuse the template message on the page with the protection. The template mistakenly says that the page is protected for five days (it's been updated and now says September 27). The protection will end on 9/23, regardless of what the template says. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 05:46, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the protection expires in a couple hours. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 10:11, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Comment on photo

moved from Talk:African American:

In reference to the picture at the top of the page: Why Robert Curbeam? Ronald McNair I think is a better choice. He has a crater named after him, and a federal scholar program... and he had a PhD from MIT. and he paid the ultimate price dying in the challenger disaster. plus who the hell is robert curbeam? also McNair's hair is way cooler. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.122.207.101 (talk) 03:26, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Didn't see this discussion until after my edit. Two things... why only nine images... lots of ethnicity pages have more... I also notice that arts and cultural figures such as John Coltrane, Miles Davis, and Josephine Baker were completely missing. Does nobody value the arts?!? Is it always about politics and history? Other ethnicity pages have such figures in their pages... and keeping out Brrack Obama is going to look really ridiculous once he becomes president. It's ridiculous regardless.--Dr who1975 (talk) 22:56, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

There has been plenty of discussion about Obama, and concern that including his picture in the infobox might look like an endorsement. Wait another two weeks to include him.

With respect to the other people, please let's discuss them — as we did the other images — instead of unilaterally inserting them. I don't mind putting more people from the arts into the infobox, but last time we discussed it editors wanted contemporary figures (rather than historical ones).

By the way, Sidney Poitier isn't African American. He's Bahamian-American. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 02:50, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

• • • I just want to state that I lean toward being against adding more than nine images, there are obviously plenty of Afr-Americans to choose from but it shouldnt be over done with the pics because it begins to look trashy and unprofessional. As for the first comment, I chose Robert Curbeam because he holds the record for spacewalks, which is something many dont know, but Id be ok with McNair replacing him. As for "the Arts" I think one of those figures(perferably Miles Davis) should replace that photo currently in the cultural influence section. As for Barack Obama, I do agree that it would be tacky not to have him on top of the page, especially if he becames President. It is of my opinion that either Powell or the astronaut (Curbeam/McNair) be replaced. By the way Barack is on the page, if you didnt notice.Therock40756 (talk) 05:47, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I get the Sydney Poitier thing. As for Obama: although I disagree that including Obama would be an endorsement (it should be major enough that he's the first african american major party candidate, an explanation that goes beyond any endorsement)... I am sensative to the point you are making and understand that we shoudl wait until he wins (or looses) the election. I still think that if it's laid out well, 16 pictures or even a column of 12 or 20 pictures would still work... some of the other ethnicity pages have them and there are a lot of great figures that could stand to have some representation.--Dr who1975 (talk) 23:26, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

• • • I have some proposed changes. If Barack Obama is elected next week Ill be replacing Robert Curbeam with Barack Obama in the photos and adding information about his win in the opening History section. Dr. Who, I believe that Malik Shabazz harbors some personal issues with Barack Obama. For months hes been very adament about denying Obama his due on the African-American page. Notice how he has now shrunk the size of the Obama family photo in recent weeks. The man is about to be President for Christ sakes. I didnt even vote for him, but he still deserves a visible spot. So if anyone has any other changes lets agree on them now so the changes can be implemented on November 5th, 2008.Therock40756 (talk) 18:37, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of whether he wins or loses, I think we should consider adding Obama — and I wrote that above. (Maybe you should try reading my comments before you make accusations.) I don't have any "personal issues" with him; I've explained my concerns, and most other editors have agreed with them. With respect to the picture of the Obama family, see WP:MOS#Images: "If an image displays satisfactorily at the default size, it is recommended that no explicit size be specified." My "issues" are that I try to follow Wikipedia guidelines, like WP:MOS and WP:OVERLINK. I'm sorry if that upsets you.

PS: Last month you were belly-aching that all the people in the infobox were liberals. (They weren't, but that's beside the point.) This month you want to add a liberal to the infobox. LOL. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 03:08, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to suggest that we replace the current montage with the one below on Wednesday. I'd appreciate feedback. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 06:09, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

• • • Malik cut the BS, if you dont want Obama to be on the page just say it, theres no point in wasting peoples time with BS. By your standards the MLK pic and the Crispus Attucks links would both fail to meet your criteria yet you didnt make an attempt to modify them. Unlike you Im NON-partisan, I dont mind having liberals (even a uber one like Obama) if I feel they are high-profile or important enough to know. The few conservitive thinkers on the page wouldnt even be there without me. I think the template you made is fine, Ill only suggest replacing that bland overused Obama photo with a better one.Therock40756 (talk) 01:37, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

What in the world are you ranting about? — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 03:36, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

LEts include . He is African American, and would go along way to showing race as a merely social construct.--Die4Dixie (talk) 09:26, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Now that the elections are over, I don't have any objections to Obama's picture in the montage. Kman543210 (talk) 09:29, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

This section right here contains a proposing a new montage then implementing it, with almost no replies, there is hardly any discussion for someone to claim that it generated a "consensus."

[edit] oprah

there is a musician already (miles davis) but the most successful aa entrepreneur deserves a slot which would be best taken from another musician (beyonce). oprah has made most influential list on TIME including most influential of the century, i really cannot see the justification for including Beyonce at Oprahs expense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.254.34.173 (talk) 11:06, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't feel strongly one way or the other about Oprah, but if she's included her picture is going to have to be cropped so it highlights her face and torso. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 18:46, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I do not know how to crop, could you do it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.248.192.203 (talk) 18:48, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I am against a change from agreed upon version. I believe a beautiful women like beyonce should appear in the temp, plus there is already a picture of Oprah on the page.Therock40756 (talk) 19:55, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

... as are pictures of Obama and King. I personally don't think that Beyoncé is important enough to be featured there, and would favor Winfrey. However, I also think that women are a bit underrepresented there. How about replacing Henry Johnson with Oprah Winfrey?
Or how about making the template select a random twelce pictures from a list of candidates each time it's cached. :) --Amalthea^Talk 20:09, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

There aren't any African Americans from the business world in the template. Oprah is primarily an entertainer, but she's also a businesswoman.

With respect to who Oprah replaces: We've got a nice symmetry now between color and black and white photos. Replacing Henry Johnson with a color picture would upset that pattern. On the other hand, I'm sensitive to the issue of having so few women. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 20:53, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Beyonce is a business women too and I think Obama and King are a bit more deserving of two pictures than Oprah. Im strongly for keeping beyonce, if another female must be included it should probably replace morgan freeman although I find it funny how only females want Beyonces pic removed. A good idea for a women truely deserving to be up there would be Michelle ObamaTherock40756 (talk) 21:46, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

How does this look, replacing Morgan Freeman with Oprah? — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 04:40, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Just a minor note that bothered me when I looked at this template: the male-female ratio is currently 6:1, and would only be 3:1 if you slip Oprah in. No offense to Henry Johnson, but perhaps he should be replaced with a black-and-white photograph of a historical African American female figure. Image:Harriet_Tubman.jpg, Rosa Parks, and Image:Shirley_Chisholm.jpg span a good length of time depending on what period you'd like to draw from.

Also, it'd be more objective to include Aretha Franklin as a color photograph of a singer (rather than Beyonce); Aretha is, after all, the second most honored female singer in Grammy history. The Beyonce inclusion strikes me as a bit recentist. AATP (talk) 16:21, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Again, Im for keep Beyonce she is one of the biggest female artist today, she represents the present of African American culture. While I think its pointless having duel photos of Oprah, can accept Maliks latest proposal. I do agree there should probably be at least one female historical figure. I suggest replacing Malcolm X or Duboius, both have had a spot for over a year now. Of the 3 mentioned figures I like Harriet Tubman.Therock40756 (talk) 02:30, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Revised once again, substituting Harriet Tubman for Henry Johnson. With respect to Beyonce, I think she could be replaced by Aretha Franklin but I know that Therock40756 feels very strongly about including her. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 04:58, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Is there no room for discussion here about G. K. Butterfield? Is there any objection to including him?Die4Dixie (talk) 09:49, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

What is Butterfield's importance? Does he have any significant accomplishments? Based on his article, he sounds like an unremarkable Congressmember. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 02:21, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

It would illustrate a very light AA, which would substantiate the social construct of race. A one of the few members of the congeressional black caucus, he is notable. The article would be improved by his inclusion. I'm concerned that there appears to be a "blackness" litmus test for inclusion. Feel free to disabuse me if I am in error.Die4Dixie (talk) 03:55, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

W. E. B. Du Bois was extremely light-skinned (he probably could have passed for white), and Malcolm X was also light. Frankly, Butterfield seems like a run-of-the-mill politician. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 03:31, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

My family passed over three generations ago. I don't think Du Bois could have. You must have some different pictures of him. You must admit that there are no images of anyone as bright skinned as Butterfield. I'm not married to the idea of him appearing somewhere in the article; however, I can't see any objection to him being there either.Die4Dixie (talk) 09:29, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

• I'm very happy to see that Harriet Tubman and Oprah are now included. I think the current image strikes just the right balance in having women and people of varying fields of contribution represented. --Jleon (talk) 03:57, 13 November 2008 (UTC)