Talk:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

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    [edit] Discussion Topics

    This page has too many comments debating whether or not LDS doctrines are true or not. Encyclopedias report on religions from the point of view of the religion. Thus we say Mohammad received the Koran from an angel, not that he wrote the Koran.Jkolak (talk) 07:23, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

    Well said! Better to get the information about something from the source.

    A poem begins in delight and ends in wisdom.--WaltFrost (talk) 20:14, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

    That's funny (the original post) as this article allows 'pointo f view of the religion' but a glance over at "Eastern Orthodoxy" has every doctrine and thought proceeded by "Orthodox Christians believe......" Which is the proper take on it (from wiki's perspective)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.126.163.20 (talk) 22:55, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] School System

    The template on the right has an awkward line break for me in "school system." It's not a big deal--but a bit ugly. I believe the template is editable. Should I edit it? Rogerdpack (talk) 03:25, 22 September 2008 (UTC) It appears to have been cleared up now in IE and FF. Thank you if anyone did it. Now if we can get a higher quality image for that CJCLDS... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rogerdpack (talk • contribs) 16:51, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] Polytheism

    I have writtne a section on LDS polytheism, I have sited all my sourses, it is accurate why does it get deleated —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.174.25.156 (talk) 19:41, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

    When you state or imply a controversial conclusion such as "Mormons are polytheists" and cite primary sources (such as quotes from scripture or sermons) to support your conclusion, you are engaging in original research, which is not permitted at Wikipedia. You can quote a scholar or other reliable source who associates LDS belief with polytheism, but you can't make that argument yourself. (I've linked those terms so you can follow them to the Wikipedia policy pages that talk about them.)
    I'd encourage you to register for a named account on Wikipedia, and if you think something about the LDS church and polytheism belongs in this article, to discuss it on this talk page before trying to re-add the material. Keep in mind, though, that this article is supposed to be a broad overview of the LDS church, and detailed treatment of particular theological questions would not be appropriate here (though it would in satellite articles, and I suspect there's one that already discusses the polytheism question).
    In any case, welcome to Wikipedia, and don't worry about having your first few edits reverted; that can happen when you're getting your feet wet, and I hope you don't take it personally. alanyst /talk/ 20:09, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

    So despite quoting LDS leaders and prophets that clearly show the polytheistic nature of the religion, it’s wrong to put in here. OK… So in the face of clear evidence from what they call scripture showing a multitude of gods, it’s too controversial and because it’s controversial it can’t be done… OK So notwithstanding Joseph Smith’s own practice of polygamy and his own writings that show his approval of it, this page will say it was all Young… OK

    And you call this accurate… why?

    Or and mind you just a simple or, are the alternative reasons for censoring even in the face of good citation… oh no of course not, no how could that ever be, no. I mean sure document this teaching from their own writings and supply webster’s own definition of polytheism and it’s still not right. I mean sure in the English language the word gods means more than one, which means polytheism and yea that is just to much of an inductive leap because clearly the teaching and writings of these leaders are not admissible because they themselves lead you to this conclusion.

    [Courtesy blanking of unpleasant invective.] 02:53, 3 October 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.92.57.45 (talk)

    My reply to you above was intended to answer your question ("why are my edits being undone") in a way that would encourage you to become a good contributor here, even though you seem to hold different opinions than I do. Your response starts out fine, asking questions that are reasonable for a new Wikipedia editor holding strong opinions to ask, and I'd gladly respond...but then your emotions got the better of you and you resorted to calling names. That's unacceptable. Please remove your comments that attack me, and I'd be happy to resume a cordial discussion. alanyst /talk/ 21:19, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

    [Courtesy blanking of unpleasant invective.] 03:31, 3 October 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.92.57.45 (talk)

    It is not "your", but you're, a contraction of "you are". It is a common mistake, but at least you have come to a place where educated people hang out. Cencer is also not a word in English, I think you mean censor. We do not allow censorship of anything on Wikipedia; however, we do not allow stupidity to reign nor do we allow Wikipedia to turn into a personal blog.
    Since you seem to enjoy direct language, I will take this opportunity to correct you with direct language. First of all, the sources you use to prove your point do not do so. You either do not understand LDS doctrine or you are being deceitful; I suspect a little of both. Second, LDS doctrine has already been addressed in the article and addresses the topic which you are attempting to make. Third, when an editor reverts your edits and invites you to discuss the proposal, I advise you to take them up on the offer. Fourth, by your behavior it is difficult to assume that you are editing in good faith. Should you continue to act in a similar manner you will be blocked. Cheers. --StormRider 00:30, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
    •"It is not "your", but you're, a contraction of "you are". It is a common mistake, but at least you have come to a place where educated people hang out. Cencer is also not a word in English, I think you mean censor".
    • Thank You for the English lesson ... which leads me to ask you a question I've been wondering about for a while: does C-O-N-C-E-N-S-U-S (concensus) [1] have the same meaning as C-O-N-S-E-N-S-U-S (consensus)? Cheers. Duke53 | Talk 05:36, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
    •03:05, October 6, 2008 (hist) (diff) Freemasonry and the Latter Day Saint movement ‎ (RV: POV soapbox; please don't continue to do this. Reach concensus first.)
    •17:05, August 19, 2008 (hist) (diff) Joseph Smith, Jr. ‎ (rv: these edits are controversial and requiree [sic] concensus; take it to talk page)
    •15:54, June 25, 2008 (hist) (diff) 1831 polygamy revelation ‎ (rv: Sorry, but those are compeltely [sic] rejected and no concensus was met on discussion page.)
    •15:03, June 4, 2008 (hist) (diff) m The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ‎ (rv: When your proposal is disputed, please do not make the edit until concensus is reached. Now is not the time for boldness, cooperative effort)
    •03:52, May 27, 2008 (hist) (diff) Talk:Internal consistency of the Bible ‎ (→Ehrman and Wallace: concensus first for contested position; references?)
    •15:30, May 17, 2008 (hist) (diff) m Demonology ‎ (rv: Please explain on talk page before deleting so much material to gain concensus for your proposed actions)
    •12:36, March 25, 2008 (hist) (diff) Talk:Book of Abraham ‎ (Concensus is better than unilateral action)
    •15:03, March 24, 2008 (hist) (diff) m Book of Abraham ‎ (rv: Let's be careful of deleting too quickly text just because it is odd; let's talk first to find concensus)
    • I'm not surprised that our 'educated' editor hasn't responded to my question ... I guess a certain religious POV makes it okay for 'some' editors to butcher the language and then criticize others for doing the same. "... Cheers Duke53 | Talk 23:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
    User:75 seems to confuse polytheism with polygamy. Kittybrewster ☎ 10:08, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

    Ok, so quoting Joseph Smith, the founder, starter, prophet, president, author of the Book of Mormon, author of Doctrines and Covenants, author of Perl of Great Price, seer, and all over king of Mormonism, quoting him talking about gods does not prove LDS to be polytheistic. After all his teachings authoritative? His teachings inspirited? He not a prophet? Who then can say, if not him what LDS believes?

    What about Young, again prophet, president, seer, fornicator, adulterer of the LDS church. When he speaks of gods, does that not show polytheism. If not Young who is authoritative to say what the LDS religion believes?

    The own songs, the songs they sing in church, talking about gods, these do not reflect their believes? Why do the sing these songs if they are not accurate to their beliefs? Their apostles, surly their apostles have the authority to say what they believe? When their apostles speak of gods, that does not show their polytheism?

    Is polytheism the right word? What does the dictionary say? Dictionary.com says, the doctrine of or belief in more than one god or in many gods. LDS must believe in more than one, for their god was once a man who was under another god. That’s two right there. Oh but wait, Joseph doesn’t get to say what LDS believe. So maybe their god wasn’t a man on another plaint and Joseph was just full of beans.

    But lets press on, The American Heritage Dictionary says, The worship of or belief in more than one god. So according to these dictionaries one only has to believe in more than one god, they don’t have to worship, just believe.

    But who can say if they believe in more than one, if the founders, if their prophets, if their apostles, if their hymns do not have the authority to set forth their teachings. You are absolutely right, it proves nothing. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, George Q. Cannon, Orson Pratt, Joseph Fielding Smith, Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrines and Convents and the Perl of Great Price are without the ability to provide accurate doctrines of their church. The Dictionary is unable to provide us with accurate meanings of words.

    Alas, how shall we concluded anything. Or wait a second, maybe that’s not it at all… maybe someone is just trying to pull the wool over the eyes of people… maybe Joseph, Brigham and so forth were polytheists, maybe the teachings of these people is authoritative, maybe the dictionary is right and maybe just maybe someone doesn’t like the conclusions these things point to and thus they censor and control what information can be presented.

    By golly, gee will occurs. This subject to much for you, [Courtesy blanking of unpleasant invective.] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.174.25.156 (talk) 17:32, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

    You have a rather strong, negative POV, which is welcome, but that does not mean Wikipedia turns into your personal blog. You have a limited understanding of LDS doctrine. To keep it simple, if it is not in the LDS Scriptures, then it is not doctrine. Prophets, seers, and revelators are just men. They are not God or angels, but just men. They are entitled to have their own thoughts and musings, but just because they say something it does not mean it is doctrine or even inspired. Do you understand this simple principle?
    Second, read the definition you just gave above...WORSHIP, did you catch that? Do you have any reference for LDS worshiping more than the Godhead? No, you do not. What you are confusing is the concept of deification/theosis/exaltation with polytheism. You must read a lot of anti-Mormon literature because this is the type of silliness for which they excel. The concept of becoming one with God has existed since the time of Jesus Christ. I suppose you do read the Bible and are familiar with his prayer for just that realization for mankind?
    Third, you are again incorrect. What we will not allow is for someone with nothing but an axe to grind to spout their incorrect understanding of LDS beliefs and to continue in spreading ignorance. Cheers. --StormRider 17:55, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

    1) you please re-read the definitions, "The worship of OR belief..." and "the doctrine of or belief in more than one god". See that little word or. In other words to worship more than one is polytheism, or to just believe in more than one is polytheism. And LDS must believe in more than one. 2) You want it from what LDS calls scripture, fine. Abr. 4: 1-12, 14, 16-18, 20-22, 24-29, 31, Abr. 5: 2-5, 7-9, 11-16, 20, D&C 132: 17-20, 37. 3) So these prophets and apostles are not like the ones from the Bible? The one’s from the Bible, their writings are scripture, their writings are authoritative, however from your view Smith’s, Young’s and so forth are not, thus they are not the same as the ones from the Bible. 4) I have no axe to grind, I only want truth presented, not watered down, white washed, “make us look mainline” crap. I want truth! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.174.25.156 (talk) 18:45, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

    Ah, the WP:TRUTH. It's no wonder you're so upset; as Defender of The Truth it must be extremely disappointing to have other people fail to recognize it as The Truth.
    I'll engage your argument in seriousness for a moment. Polytheism is a broad term that is typically associated with religions such as those of ancient Greece and Rome, or with modern religions like Hinduism or Shinto. As Christianity is generally held to be monotheistic by its adherents, labeling Mormonism as a polytheistic religion like these others serves the point of view of those who claim that Mormons are not truly Christian.
    The sources you quote do indeed suggest some concept of "multiple gods" in Mormon tradition, though the extent to which this concept is official doctrine is a matter of debate. Unlike well-known polytheistic religions, though, there is no pantheon in LDS belief, no worship of minor deities, or anything else that places a believer in a position of venerating a being other than God. Thus the term "polytheism" is inappropriate because its connotation is misleading.
    Is there a more precise term to use? Henotheism is closer since it describes worship of a single God but recognition of other gods—but it too is inaccurate since it suggests that the other gods can be legitimate objects of worship too, and this has no support in LDS tradition or belief that I know of. From what I've read, the closest label for the statements you have quoted is monolatrism.
    Now, the thing is, it doesn't matter what I or any other Wikipedia editor thinks is the best label for the LDS belief in God and/or gods. Saying on our own that Mormonism is polytheistic or henotheistic or monolastric would be synthesizing a conclusion based on our personal interpretation of primary sources. That's the sort of original research that Wikipedia forbids. If there are reliable sources that associate one or more of those labels with LDS belief, that's different, and there's a supportable argument for making that association in Wikipedia.
    This explanation might not satisfy you but it's the best I can offer at present. If you are willing to discuss it civilly, I'm willing to consider your further thoughts. But if you make any more personal attacks on me or anyone else, I will ask that you be blocked and I'm confident that what you have already posted will be sufficient grounds for fulfilling that request. I hope it doesn't come to that. alanyst /talk/ 20:07, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

    Thank you! Finally someone worth talking to. Finally someone who understands. And in light of this explanation helps me to understand your position.

    I may concede polytheism (seen as a loaded term) may not be the best word to use, however Monotheism does not apply to LDS. Webster: the doctrine or belief that there is but one God. LDS can not have but One God or their system falls.

    Communicate this truth on this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.174.25.156 (talk) 16:19, 6 October 2008 (UTC)


    We do NOT go by dictionary.com or webster or anything other than wikipedia for definations of words like polytheism. Therefor polytheism is: "Polytheism is belief in or worship of multiple gods (usually assembled in a pantheon) together with associated mythology and rituals." LDS has no rituals or mythology, stories, about any other gods, unless you think that the devil is a god. TAU Croesus (talk) 15:29, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

    Your adding to the definition what you want to add to it. “…usually assembled in a pantheon) together with associated mythology and rituals.” That’s not the definition of the word, that’s your view of what the word means. As it stand the definition fits LDS and thus it is accurate to label LDS polytheistic no matter what you want to add to the definition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.174.25.156 (talk • contribs)

    Anonymous, I think we're getting close to a mutual understanding. I think we can agree that "polytheism" is not a good word to use. You say above that "monotheism" does not apply to Mormonism. Well, under the definition you gave, it does, since it says "one God" and not "one god". The capitalization implies a named entity, and in Mormon belief there is indeed but one God: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. But, I agree that the word "monotheism" is to be avoided too, on the same basis that "polytheism" should be. Neither is a good word because it fails to express important nuances of Mormon belief, doctrine, and/or tradition. And more importantly, since it depends on how you interpret the primary sources, and what you consider to qualify as an authoritative statement of LDS belief, and how you read the dictionary definitions, it's not an objective and uncontroversial decision to use one term over the other. We would have to look to external, reliable sources to provide that kind of analysis. If they can be found, quoting and citing them would be desirable (as long as it's in an article of appropriate subject and scope).
    In the end, what's important is to inform the reader in a neutral way. If a label helps the reader understand Mormon belief better and does not bias them toward a particular point of view, that label is appropriate to use. If not, it's better to avoid the labels if they can't be cited to a reliable source. Can we agree on this? alanyst /talk/ 16:58, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

    We are not in agreement. Monotheism does not apply to LDS. Webster: the doctrine or belief that there is but one God. LDS can not have but One God or their system falls. Let us look at other definitions of Monotheism, Webster's New World College Dictionary: “the belief or doctrine that there is only one God”. The American Heritage Dictionary, “The doctrine or belief that there is only one God. Collins Essential English Dictionary, “the belief or doctrine that there is only one God. All these definitions, say “only one” or “but one”. Meaning there can only be one. If there is more than one it’s not monotheism. Note the definitions have no reference to worship of only one, instead the word belief is used. So regardless of how many are worshiped, the acknowledgement in the existence of any more than one disqualifies it as monotheism. I stated above, LDS must believe, they must acknowledge the existence of more than one. If they don’t acknowledge the existence of more than one, Joseph was wrong when he said a council of gods got together Journal of Discourses 6:4 and there after. Also Abr. 4: 1-12, 14, 16-18, 20-22, 24-29, 31, Abr. 5: 2-5, 7-9, 11-16, 20, D&C 132: 17-20, 37, all these acknowledge the existence of more than one God. The importance of showing LDS to not be monotheistic, is immeasurable. For an accurate understanding of a religion, one must understand its theology. Thus what group or classification a religion is under is vital (i.e. Polytheism, monotheism, agnosticism, atheism, existentialism, deism, pantheism). Example: One cannot understand Islam without understanding its monotheistic stance. If one was to be unaware of this fact, they would not grasp Islam. Hence, if one is ever to understand LDS and they mistake it for monotheism, they misunderstand it or the word. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.174.25.156 (talk) 17:27, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

    Sorry, what I meant was that we seemed close to agreement that the labels were probably not useful to understanding LDS belief. I didn't mean to imply that you and I agree about which label is more applicable in terms of "the truth". But you need to accept that there's no point in arguing that aspect of it, since we're not qualified to decide the matter. Nobody is qualified to decide that on Wikipedia. We must rely on reliable sources for the analysis of LDS belief in terms of what -theism it may be classified under. The whole point of WP:NOR is to prevent endless debate among editors who insist on their personal interpretation as the most valid one, or indeed the only one. alanyst /talk/ 17:50, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

    We are close to agreement that labels are probably not useful. "Nobody is qualified to decide that on Wikipedia". We are not close to agreement. I'm reminded of Elihu's words, "Let us discern for ourselves what is right; let us learn together what is good... Pay attention, Job, and listen to me; be silent, and I will speak If you have anything to say, answer me; speak up, for I want you to be cleared But if not, then listen to me; be silent, and I will teach you wisdom." Words have definitions which give words meanings, these meanings can be used to measure the accuracy of the uses of the words and as I have attempted to illustrate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.174.25.156 (talk) 19:29, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

    And those definitions are expressed in words that have their own definitions, and so forth. So, can you tell me what the canonical definition is of God (capital G, as used to define monotheism) and how it is different from the canonical definition of god (lowercase g, as used to define polytheism)? alanyst /talk/ 19:54, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

    What do you ask? Canonical definition? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.174.25.156 (talk) 20:10, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

    "Official definition", if that is more clear. Why does the definition of monotheism that you have quoted say "one God", with a capital G, while the definition of polytheism uses a lowercase g for "gods"? The answer to that question must lie in the difference between the definitions for God (capitalized) and god (lowercased). These words have meanings and definitions; can you tell what they are? alanyst /talk/ 20:24, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
    Not that I would generally advocate it, but this would be a great time for a primary source. The general inference here is one's own research, and unless the church wants to advocate their position as being polytheistic, I see no reason for any debate - although I always find discussion useful. But as I've learned, the best discussions on WP talk pages are often backed up with references. I just hate to see anyone go in circles, as religion can be tricky when it comes to OR and NPOV. XF Law talk at me 05:58, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

    We do not use outside sources for definitions, unless those sources are cited on the appropriate pages. Most of your dictionary sources are reliable, but their words are NOT used in wiki for definitions. According to Wikipedia, Monotheism, "...is the belief that only one deity exists." Look at the definition of deity (according to wiki). "A deity is a postulated preternatural or supernatural being, who is always of significant power, worshipped, thought holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, or respected by human beings." Mormons believe that only the Unitarian has significant power, is worshipped, thought holy, divine, or sacred. Other exalted beings that mormons believe in, do not have any power here except that under the direction of God, and are termed angels. So, if you wish to classify mormons as polytheistic, you should be trying to come to a different consensus about the definition of deity on its page. TAU Croesus (talk) 14:14, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

    Yea, not really sure what we are talking about anymore. So more or less going to shot in the dark and see where that gets it.

    Joseph Smith described the infinite series of previous gods: Joseph Smith's Sermon on Plurality of Gods (as printed in History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473-479) “If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father… Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also…”

    Joseph Smith Taught the plurality of gods is based upon Hebrew: “In the very being the Bible shows there is plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation…” Joseph Fieldign Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith 1976, pg 372

    And all the other sources I’ve shown that LDS has a plurality of gods, however it is imposable if you think about it.

    There is no first in an infinite line and if there is no first there is no bringing. If you are to claim there is a first there are several problems to resolve: The infinite lineage of gods is not truly infinite, it’s really only a very large number. The god at the beginning of the finite line of gods would be a unique in this succession of gods, and in fact greater in his existence, since he did not come from a line of gods. The first god in this large number of god did no derive his source from another, and therefore always existed without cause. If LDS ever concede that a uncaused God existed, then they destroy Mormon exaltation, because a unique infinite God would exist above all of their finite gods.

    However as defined more than one God or Gods is polytheism according to the dictionaries, I have sighted. 1 Cor 8:5 refutes this polytheism found in Mormonism. The words “so-called gods) is not a recognition of other gods, but a denial that any such gods exist. When Paul calls these gods and lords “so called”, he is mocking the possibility of their existence.

    Polytheism is repeated renounced in the Bible. Gen 1:1- the opening verse of the Bible declares the truth of one God. The Hebrew is translated as a singular noun, based on the singular verb. He He is uncreated Creator, nothing existed with him in the beginning. The theme of one God is carried on throughout the Bible Deut. 32:39, Ps 86:10, Is 43:10, 44:6, 45:21. Other so-called gods are no gods by nature. Paul refers to the false gods as not true by nature: “When you did not know God you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods” Gal 4:8. All other gods are the products of human imagination. Paul said we ought not think that God is “an image made by man’s design and skill” Acts 17:29 and thereby exchange “the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man”. Mormon’s paint pictures of the first vision accounts of Jospeh Smith with two human-gods appearing in the a light, there are no less images. Thus Mormons have exchanged God’s heavenly likeness for an earthly likeness. Isaiah summed up the issue with the challenge, “to whom, then. Will you compare God? What image will you compare him to?” (40:18).

    However now I’m off topic, but to believe LDS one would have to declare the Bible to be wrong. O.T. Ex 8:10 - Deu 4:35, 39; 32:39; 33:26 - 1 Sam 2:2; 7:22; 22;32 – 2 Sam 7:22; - 1 Kin 8:23 – 2 Kin 19:19 - 1 Chr 17:20 - Ps 18:31; 86:10 - Isa 43:10, 11; 44:6, 8; 45:5, 6, 14, 18, 21-22, 46:9, 64:4 - Jer 10:6, 7 - Hos 13:4 N.T. John 5:44; 17:3 - Rom 3:30; 16:27 - 1 Cor 8:4, 6 - Eph 4:6 - 1 Tim 1:17; 2:5 - Jude 25. Either LDS is right and the Bible wrong, or both are wrong, however both can’t be right.

    This has begun to enter the world of the absurd. 1 Cor 8:5 in the KJV readers differently than the translation you are using, which I suspect is the NIV. I wonder what the Bible says about adding to and/or taking away? Why would these two verses read so differently and who was entitled to change the word of God? Strange...but I digress.
    Though we all appreciate your interest and effort. This is an encyclopedia which strives to focus on facts and not personal opinions. To do this for this article is to focus on what the LDS Church states is its doctrine and beliefs. If you would like to use a reputable source to say that LDS do not know their own doctrine and that they really should believe something different, then let's discuss that.
    We are not here to prove which church is true, what doctrines are true, or what you think. Truth means nothing to Wikipedia because it acknowledges that it is not capable of saying what is or is not TRUE. Truth is a personal issue. We can report that John Calving taught x, y, z and that he believed it was true; however, we cannot say that John Calvin taught the truth. --StormRider 18:25, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

    Yea, and I bet you really beleive the KJV was written by Paul You miss the point —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.174.25.156 (talk) 18:42, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

    The point is that the Bible is open to interpretation. That difference in interpretation is why there are over 36,000 Christian denominations in the world today, each of them holding the bible and proclaiming to teach the truth. This is why we require a secondary or tertiary reputable source that defines the meaning of scripture.
    For the purposes of this specific article, please use a reputable reference to support your position. If you don't have it, then we are at a end.
    You may want to consider looking at other articles where your line of argument may have more applicability: Criticism of Mormonism and Mormonism and Christianity come immediately to mind. --StormRider 18:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
    I'd just like to agree with Storm Rider. There are many different churches that all believe in the bible, many with doctrines that are opposite, which are backed up with bible verses, and their interpretation. The key is interpretation. Acts 10:9-18. If someone were to interpret Peter's vision, without knowing what Peter did, it seems to me that the rules governing what you can eat were being changed. However, Peter interpreted this vision to mean that the gospel was to go to the gentiles. If only we had an authority from God to interpret other scriptures that confuse the world of christendom. TAU Croesus (talk) 08:26, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

    Again, you miss the point. Right now, me and my fiancée are working though a book, saving your marriage before it starts. In the communication section, like the book says you can learn all the “tricks” to communication and still not communicate, because you have never learned to listen. You can hear, however you can’t listen, because it takes work. You have read what I wrote, but you did not understand it. (I’m not talking about some kind of spiritual understanding either) I’m saying you read the words, but the point eluded you. The reason, because you only read, “Anti-momon” words. You’ve already judged me guilty of being “anti-mormon” and therefore misinterpret, seeing only attack, not reason, only hate, not logic. Your response is formulated before you even finish your reading. IF you were to paraphrase my writing my thesis would be completely absent from your elucidation. What we have here is MaCarthism. My point can’t even get across because you’ve already arbitrator it to be simply “anti-mormon”. Let me explain, with another example. In 2008, if you abject to homosexuality in any form, your automatically labeled, homophobic. Honest students of the Bible, object to homosexuality on a moral or ethical basis; and an objecting on a moral or ethical basis does not constitute a phobia. However just like in MaCarthism, your already guilty and not worth even hearing. That is what is going on here. My point falls on deaf ears. I ask, with LDS watch-dogs protecting, censoring this page. There is no objectivity. There is also no honesty. Look where it reads polygamy was encouraged by Young. That’s a half truth, because Young is teaching what Smith taught. Smith not Young was the author of D&C 132. Yet this page puts all the blame for polygamy on Young. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.174.25.156 (talk) 16:36, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

    A walk down the lane to absurdity. The problem here is the obvious lack of knowledge of the articles on Wikipedia, the neutrality demanded by Wikipedia, and your desire for a single article to say everything there is to say on the Latter Day Saint movement. Read the Joseph Smith, Jr. article, or the Origin of Latter Day Saint polygamy. The fact is that for the LDS Church and the entire Latter Day Saint movement, Brigham Young was the main force to the expansion of polygamy. Nowhere does it say on Wikipedia that he started it.
    We don't listen to you? How about you doing exactly what you are accusing everyone else of doing. You have limited knowledge and a strong POV pushing you into a zealous pursuit of a topic that has been throughly hashed out by a multitude of editors. We get this type of one-horse pony show several times a year and it comes from both sides of the issues...those who are most definitely anti-Mormons that just got turned on by their half-witted Evangelical preacher and LDS who do not have an understanding of history or who want to white-wash it.
    Our objective is an article that meets NPOV standards, that does not lead readers to a specific conclusion, but just reports facts. For you to excel here, you need to understand the full picture of Mormonism (it is not just the LDS Church and we can't write it from that position) and put down your axe...it twists your perspective. Also, glad to know you and your wife working on communication skills. It will come in handy here. Start with listening here.--StormRider 17:24, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

    Wow, you illustrate my last point beautify. I can say no more, MaCarthism lives and I rest my case. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.174.25.156 (talk) 18:44, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

    Said the pot to the kettle. You are at least good for a laugh. I suspect that your communications with your wife are not moving ahead well. --StormRider 19:17, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

    I thought that I understood the points. You said Mormons are polytheist. I said that according to the wiki definitions of polytheism, deity, and such, that they are not polytheist. I would suggest taking a doctrine discussion to a personal talk page. This isn't the place to discuss doctrine, and whether it makes sense. It is to discuss the article, and what should be included. TAU Croesus (talk) 21:24, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

    mormens are not a calt —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.46.94.78 (talk) 18:00, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] Merger proposal

    The other article on Sexuality with regards to the church is really short. It seems that it would make more sense to have it be a short section in this article than a separate stub. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.23.186.180 (talk • contribs)

    If that article should get merged, I suggest it go to Law of Chastity. --wL<speak·check> 08:05, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
    Oppose. Are you talking about Sexuality and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? That article is a good summary article about all aspects of Mormonism and sexuality, including homosexuality, the law of chastity, same sex marriage, polygamy, etc. We need a good summary article, and I don't think that shortness is a good reason, in itself, to merge articles. The best solution is to add content to the short article. Also, it should not be merged with Law of Chastity. COGDEN 19:51, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] Three distinct beings, as well as three distinct persons

    Regarding this statement: (The Church) does not accept the Nicene Creed's definition of Trinity, that the three are consubstantial nor the Athanasian Creed's statement (presumably about the Trinity, with this grammatical construction) that they are incomprehensible.

    But the Athanasian creed says that it is the nature of God to be incomprehensible. It doesn't say that the definition of the Trinity is incomprehensible. Being incomprehensible is understood to be part of the nature of God and it is parallel with the creed's statement that God is uncreated, eternal and almighty.

    Of course it is possible that the doctrine is incomprehensible -- but that would be a POV. And, of course, not part of the Athanasian creed (which is trying to explain Trinity).

    So, IMO the phrase about the Athanasian creed should be dropped. But I might be missing something.

    If rewritten, I do not know how this could be stated from a LDS viewpoint, and I don't want to mess up the NPOV so I didn't attempt an edit yet. But as it stands, it suggests a misunderstanding of the Athanasian creed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edtheist (talk • contribs) 09:35, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

    As a factual matter, I think it's true that Mormons disagree with the premise that God himself is incomprehensible (apart from the doctrine). Brigham Young stated:
    "It is one of the first principles of the doctrine of salvation to become acquaint[ed] with our Father and our God. The Scriptures teach that this is eternal life, to "know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent;" this is as much as to say that no man can enjoy or be prepared for eternal life without that knowledge." --JD 4:215
    So I think it's correct to say that Mormons disagree with the Athanasian creed. However, for WP:NOR purposes, we ought to have a citation that directly references the Athanasian creed in the context of Mormonism, if one exists.
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