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[edit] No screenshots?This is ridiculous. A high profile film article without a single screenshot? I imagine that some fair use hounds came and just removed them all. Surely a couple can be used though.--SeizureDog (talk) 07:12, 6 January 2008 (UTC) I agree. There's some crappy pic of the underground farm, where's the ICONIC images like the Star Destroyer flying overhead or Luke turning on the lightsabre for the first time?? Are you serious? Lucas would sue. He's a paranoid millionaire, not a philanthropist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.179.30.13 (talk) 03:25, 3 July 2008 (UTC) [edit] Lots of Categories RemovedA bunch of categories were removed by an anon IP editor. Anyone know if that removal was appropriate? Dp76764 (talk) 20:06, 8 February 2008 (UTC) [edit] Triumph Of The Will ReferenceI would like the following text to be included in the article, in the 'Cinematic and literary allusions' section... "One of the most controversial sources in Star Wars is the infamous Nazi propaganda movie 'Triumph of the Will', by Leni Reifenstahl, which glamorizes Hitler's triumphant arrival at the 1934 Nuremburg Rallies. It is the primary source for the final scene in which Hans, Luke and Chewbacca walk through a hall of assembled rebel soldiers to receive their medals, there is a striking, undeniable similarity to Hitler’s arrival at the Nuremberg Stadium in Triumph of The Will. However, there is no reason to suppose Lucas was attempting to promote Nazi ideology, it would seem he merely replicated a very powerful image from what is widely regarded as a brilliant, if very misguided, film." This is not a hysterical claim, it is verifiable and deserves to be included. Triumph of The Will, while it was a Nazi Propaganda film, was a massively influential and brilliant piece of cinematography and there is no doubt that Lucas took the imagery of the Nurenberg film and copied it almost completely. There is a Wiki page on 'Triumph of The Will', take a look and you will see the Star Wars/Triumph of the Will reference confirmed there. There are loads of other comfirmations of the link. It is a verifiable fact and therefore is appropriate. Please respond because i feel this is a perfectly valid and provable fact which I wish to see included in this article and it already has been repeatedly removed, (I don't know by who). Go to link below to check photos showing similarity http://alum.hampshire.edu/~jbfF95/swtotw.htm Thanks Kenny —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.8.161.226 (talk) 13:33, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] LOTR + Star Wars???If this is supposed to be a 'brilliant' rated article then the highly tenuous claim that LOTR influenced Star Wars (SW) should be taken down. If I wished I could drum up equally convincing arguments about SW was influenced by The Bible or SW and The Roman Empire, but they wouldn't be true. The author claims that Gandalf fighting the Balrog was the inspiration for Obi-Wan fighting Darth Vader, while Frodo/Skywalker looked-on. Plus, the article attempts to 'prove' this by pointing out that Gandalf and OBI both had blue weapons and Balrog and Darth had Red weapons. Hmm... Have you ever heard of reverse engineering? It is where you start with a conclusion then work backwards, cherry-picking things to prove your conclusion. It is EXACTLY what the author of the SW/LOTR section did. They wanted the link to be true and searched for evidence to prove it. Unfortunately, that 'evidence' is laughable and has no concrete reference to back it up. (quoting another fanzine website that explores this silly idea is NOT a reference). Reverse Engineering is a piece of cake, watch, I will now 'prove' 10 things that show Gandalf was the inspiration for Obi-Wan... 1) Gandalf and Obi are both old guys with grey beards 2) Gandalf and Obi both wear scruffy monkish robes and are very wise 3) Gandalf and Obi are both warm, lovable and spiritual, but hard as nails in a fight 4) They are both keepers of secret arcane knowledge 5) They are both members of a quasi-religious secret order. 6) They both lead a small party of desperadoes in a perilous quest against Evil. 7) They both die in the attempt of their quest, but come back after death 8) They are both very humane, tolerant, incorruptable, unflappable liberals who never panic or get scared and they are both rock-solid Father figures for their young inexperienced heroes. 9) Both face grave, continous temptation from evil but remain good (the ring/the dark side) and both must defeat enemies who have fallen to that evil temptation (Sauron/Darth) 10) Gandalf's staff is Obi's light-sabre and they both are only available to members of their Order. There, not bad, even if I say so myself! And I could give you ten more just as easily. Reverse Engineering is SIMPLE and the end result is convincing if you don't look too carefully. Here's another 'loony-tune' example from the article... "Darth Vader resembles the Witch-king of Angmar in that both are the chief servants of a higher evil power and dress in black." This is just something picked out of the air! My theories are more convincing and I'm only mucking about!!! A LOTR /SW link is obviously the untested theory of a young, over-imaginative SF/Fantasy fan. No offense, but Wiki is not the site for such THC-fuelled inspiration. Basically, both LOTR and SW are modern examples of medieval Eurpoean mythology and both are stories of monsters and magic and strange lands where reluctant heroes must face terrible dangers etc etc. Of course you can find similarities if you look, because they are both rooted in King Arthur, The Crusades, Beowulf, Robin Hood, Legends, Myths, Bible stories and so on. There is no link. It spoils an otherwise solid article. Come on! ... Remove it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.243.10.13 (talk) 13:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Third opinionAfter fishing the only reference for the alleged LotR inspiration out of the Internet Archive, I'm under the impression, that this is (or was) a self-published source, not written by a notable journalistic figure and hence fails our criteria for reliable sources. Given that, the respective paragraph in the "Cinematic and literary allusions" section may be removed per our verifiability guidelines. – Cyrus XIII (talk) 18:28, 29 March 2008 (UTC) [edit] Chronology of filmsI am very well aware that the films in the "preceded by" and "followed by" are listed in terms of internal chronology, but many other film series are listed in the order they were made. And I sure as heck know that "Revenge of the Sith" was not made before "A New Hope." Now I understand why people feel these films should be listed in order of events within them, but that's not how other films do it in Wikipedia, is it? Maybe we should stay true to the fact that Lucas filmed the latter half of the saga first? Immblueversion 01:56, 14 March 2008 (UTC) So, what is the Wikipedia policy on film series order? "In-Universe" or "Real World" order? Dp76764 (talk) 03:53, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Those who want a "real-world" order are in denial that Lucas has made it crystal clear he wants them in a specific order, and no matter how much many of you want to believe the original trilogy belongs first, it does not sadly. Lucas made it clear he wants people to view them in their correct chronology, he merely started with Episode IV because he thought the series would be a flop and wanted to start with action. His entire purpose for numbering them has been because he wants his story accepted for its true chronology, and outside viewers have no right to try to override his wishes. The movies belong in their true chronological order, I-VI. Do we place the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe before the Magician's Nephew today? No, because Lewis made it clear he wanted TMN to be first. The same goes for this, and as I said no one else but the creators should have any say in changing the way the films are viewed chronologically. 12.227.159.219 (talk) 03:18, 20 April 2008 (UTC) Unfortunately, it's Lucas' work, and he clearly states he wants the films in numbered episodes according to the story he crafted. No "consensus" or even WP itself has the right to change the chronology of his story. That is vandalism. It is also more of the denial that the original trilogy comes second. The creator's wishes come before any fan's wishes in a case like this, and you are insulting Lucas by not honoring his wish for the films to be viewed as they are numbered. They are "his" films, and they are "his" stories, not the "consensus'" stories. Hence, he numbered them the way he intends them to be viewed, and that is how they need to stay as per his wishes. 12.227.159.219 (talk) 03:39, 20 April 2008 (UTC) All I can say is no matter what any "page" says, it is Lucas' property, and he wants it viewed a certain way. By not respecting his wishes, you are insulting his work and his authority over his own property. It is you that needs to "step back from the brink" and respect the wishes of the Star Wars creator, because they are not your films nor your stories. If Lucas didn't care what order they went in, he would never have numbered them, which he made it a point to do. So you need to respect his wishes in this case. 12.227.159.219 (talk) 03:48, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
What you're not understanding is that "production order" is "incorrect" as far as continuity goes. You're telling me that Anakin died before he was even born? You're telling me the Emperor was killed before the Empire even existed? No. That makes no sense, and Lucas gave the films numbers for very specific reasons, and that is how he wants them viewed. Not "in production order." Your "fact" is "fiction" as far as continuity goes, and in the series itself, they go in the order of I-VI. I think your revisions are "vandalism" and an act of great disrespect to Lucas, who has requested time and again that people stop going by "production order" and wise up to the fact that he gave the movies their numbers so they would be seen as such. So I will treat your revisions as vandalism by the same token, since yours are out of order. You are all not understanding that you are misinforming people who have never seen the films by trying to put them "in production order" rather than the "continuity order" Lucas himself set for new people to the series, and it needs to stop. They go in the order of their respective numbers, and no excuse any of you present is going to change that. If the films weren't meant to be in any particular order, Lucas wouldn't have revised Episode IV to have its number, as well as the subsequent movies. He did so because he wants people to know which order he, the creator, has deemed they go. And "nice try" to you, Mr. Monsters Inc. 12.227.159.219 (talk) 06:33, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm afraid it is you that "has no idea what you're talking about." No, it was not. If you will look at the Limited Edition DVD, the original release did not include a number, because Lucas expected the film to be a flop. "Episode IV: A New Hope" was later added by Lucas when he realized it was successful enough to continue on with his pre-written story, and at the conclusion of Episode VI, he promised fans that one day he would go back in time to tell the story of the first three Episodes and place them into the continuity as he had already written. And so get your facts straight and quit challenging peoples' knowledge about something even you don't know about. I have done extensive research on the Star Wars films for over a decade, so I will thank you to not insult my knowledge of the series due to ignorance on your part. 12.227.159.219 (talk) 06:50, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Then the box needs to be changed, because I don't see it saying "order of production" either. These films are meant to be viewed I-VI, not the other way around. I think it is all of you that are missing the point that this is misinforming viewers who don't know the Star Wars series yet, and I see nothing wrong with them being in their correct order. SithLord990205 (talk) 16:06, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
I disagree, because any John Doe out there that has never seen Star Wars before could look at this and think "Oh, I need to watch A New Hope before I watch the Phantom Menace." That is misinformation. Just because you, someone who has seen it, isn't confused doesn't mean that someone out there with no knowledge of the series isn't. I had a friend not too long ago that said they were confused because they'd heard the Phantom Menace came first but they thought A New Hope comes first. You are not thinking outside of people like yourself or myself. There is not a thing wrong with putting them in their correct order, and I see no reason why you are arguing for "production order" because that could misguide new viewers into watching IV before I. And you'd be very surprised how many people actually do come here to look up films because there are in actuality a lot of them, and this blatant misinformation needs to be corrected. You already have the production date in the box, that's more than enough for your "production order." The films need to be put in their correct, numbered order. Not to do so is a slap in the face to George Lucas and the actors that made these films. SithLord990205 (talk) 16:28, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't care if they are in production order, that's perfectly fine. But you need to make it clearly stated that these are production order, not canonical order. As it is, it appears they are in canonical order, and that's not the case. I think that's the most reasaonable solution is to make it clearly known in the prodcution boxes that that's what it is, prodcution order and not canonical order. Or perhaps add another section of it for canonical order. There needs to be something to eliminate possible confusion. And as for you Urzatron, why don't you go ask Lucas himself, I'm sure he'd be more than willing to tell you, if you ever read his interviews, which I'm sure you've never once done. If you want to know, go look it up yourself. SithLord990205 (talk) 19:37, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Oh, I have plenty of sources in his own words, but I'm not going to go digging all of them back up just because you refuse to believe it. If you want to know something more about it, go look it up for yourself like I had to three years ago when he was discussing the future of the series and his wishes for the public to accept the prequels for their canonical placement before the original trilogy. If you want to know more about it, go look through his webchats in the months before and shortly following the release of Revenge of the Sith. SithLord990205 (talk) 20:19, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
He wants the public to accept the films in the order he himself placed them in. He wants people to quit clinging to the idea that the original trilogy precludes the prequels, because he wants the story he wrote to be seen in an equal context. By placing the original trilogy first without making mention that it is merely the production order and not the canonical order can cause those less knowledgeable about the series to mistake it for that. Lucas has not said anything about production order, but he has stated he wants his series to be viewed equally, with Episodes I, II, and III coming before IV, V, and VI, because he knows there are many out there that refuse to place the prequels on the same playing field as the original trilogy. And as to a source, I have told you: go look through his webchats before the release of Revenge of the Sith and shortly thereafter. I remember him discussing his desire for the prequels to be taken in context of their true placement in the series, but as to the exact date I cannot say. I only know that it was within three months before or after the release of Revenge of the Sith, on the Hyperspace part of the Star Wars website, of which I was a member of at the time. SithLord990205 (talk) 20:43, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
That's correct, many refuse to even consider the prequels as being on the same level as the originals, and Lucas himself has tired of this. He wants people to view his series in its entirety as one complete story, I to VI. There are die-hards out there that refuse to honor his wishes though. And yes, the whole point is to place Lucas' films as he has stated he wants them. If you want them to remain in production order, that's perfectly fine, but you need to specify that in the info box itself, or maybe add another area in the info box that includes the canonical preceding and following movies. SithLord990205 (talk) 22:13, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
It's not about that at all, you're not understanding anything about it. This is not about what fans think of the movies, this is about eliminating confusion. I merely told you a fact about Star Wars fandom that has nothing to do with the matter at hand because you asked about it, so I'm afraid you're misunderstanding the point. I never once said that's the reason I'm objecting to the current placement of the films on here. There needs to be an additional box on the info box for the correct continuity of the movies or there needs to be something that denotes that this order you have it in right now is not the canonical order but rather the production order. This is not a Star Wars fan debate, this is about eliminating confusion for those not familiar with the series, so I'm afraid what you just said above is irrelevant to the matter at hand. SithLord990205 (talk) 23:16, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
EXACTLY!! I'm glad to see you're coming around to the idea. Doesn't that sound the most reasonable for everyone? And that way, newbies to the Star Wars universe won't be confused about the continuity of the saga, and the production order will be preserved. How could we go about doing that? SithLord990205 (talk) 02:08, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
The statement of which episode comes before which is the problem. As it stands now, it appears that the article is suggesting that the events of Return of the Jedi occur before the events of the Phantom Menace. That's not correct. What I propose is that we add another area to the box for the canonical order of the films, which would place them in their correct order and yet still preserve the production order as well. That way though there won't be any confusion as to how the films go in order. Because like I said, despite the Episode number, I've had friends that still mistake Episode IV as being the first in continuity, and this is to eliminate confusion like that. SithLord990205 (talk) 13:32, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
None of you get the point, but if you wish to blindly keep going with the way it is, go for it. And as much as you may want to deny it, there are people out there that don't even know there are numbers in the movies because they don't know much about the movies period. No matter how much you all may want to believe it's just fine the way it is, the article does suggest that the events of the movies are mixed around by saying that Episode VI "precedes" Episode I. It's a contradiction of the numbers in the title, which is why I'm saying it can be confusing for new viewers if you have Episode I saying it's preceded by Episode VI. Nothing any of you say is going to change that. I have suggested as a compromise to make it clear in the info box that this is the production order and not canonical order or adding a second area for the canonical order for the sake of clearing up any confusion that the current box implies, but if none of you are willing to negotiate on it or be reasonable, then I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince a lot of naysayers of the need for disambiguation because ten-to-one none of you would listen to reason anyway. SithLord990205 (talk) 14:57, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] This debate has been added at WP:RFC
[edit] criticalIt must really be more about its financial success.....but it seems critical reception has been somewhat mixed, or at least the impression the article gives...99.242.25.121 (talk) 23:36, 11 August 2008 (UTC) [edit] Lucas never refused to shoot the sequelsI fixed a loud mistake in the article : concerning Kenobi's death the article pretended that Lucas abandoned the idea of making the sequels. That's completely false, in fact the notes themselves proove the opposite of what the article pretended they had to proove! What Lucas did was preventing his movie from a flop, he conceived his 1977 movie as a single unique story, without talking about prequels or sequels, even if the film was a part and not a whole. The audiences hadn't to know the movie they were watching was an episode from a serial, so Kenobi's death is not related to any Lucas refusal of making the sequels but only to his vision of a lack of climax in a given moment of his movie (read Rolling Stone interview). So Lucas never refused to shoot the sequels, he even confirmed he wanted to shoot the last movie of the trilogy leaving the middle one to somebody else. In the same interview he said he had the idea to shoot Young Kenobi's adventures (the nowadays so called prequels). Just read the Rolling Stone interview (I included the link in the note), you'll see. 343KKT Kintaro (talk) 07:10, 10 September 2008 (UTC) [edit] Not originally called "A New Hope"?The article claims that the film was "originally released as Star Wars," sans the subtitle A New Hope. As mentioned in the Star Wars discussion page (as that article makes the same assertion), I'm questioning this claim because I've been unable to find any reliable sources that verify it. --James26 (talk) 07:25, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
I thought I remembered queueing around the block to watch Star Wars as a ten year old, but now I think about it I was wrong. I queued around the block to watch Star Wars Episode IV A New Hope. It was always called Star Wars Episode IV A New Hope. The image of the theatrical poster attached to this article has always shown Star Wars Episode IV A New Hope. We have always been at war with Eastasia.58.106.94.63 (talk) 22:35, 13 September 2008 (UTC) I don't think any of the posters or merchandise of the time ever said "Episode IV" or "A New Hope," including that poster. Answers.com among others briefly summarizes the story behind the addition. As far as I know, Fox didn't want the "Episode IV" in the crawl because it would've been too confusing for audiences. Once "Empire" came out with "Episode V" in its own crawl and everyone kinda got the idea, Lucas was allowed to change "A New Hope" for the 1981 theatrical rerelease. Also, the unmodified version released on DVD a couple years includes the original crawl without the subtitle. That in itself doesn't really resolve the exact timeline or reasons behind the change, but it's there and I don't think it's really a matter of debate anymore. Km9000 (talk) 04:04, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
[edit] 80 Days that Changed the worldThe release of the Star Wars is among TIME's 80 Days that Changed the World. [1]. I reckon this is important enough to add to the article. --EclipseSSD (talk) 19:04, 18 October 2008 (UTC) [edit] Unsourced statementsI have moved the statements lacking sources here until citations can be found. --Nehrams2020 (talk) 05:28, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
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