Talk:Social justice

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[edit] Solution?

Doesn't promoting inter-faith and inter-religious marriages solve social injustices? Known 06:15, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 2005 talk

What is David Cobbs postion on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and what needs to be done for resolution?

Come on. An argument could be made that the entire article is a "buzz" article. Your comment lacks meaning. Also, why delete the link? There is a ton of criticism on Hayek and "social justice"!!!! I will post it accordingly. Please explain your editing decisioins decisions in this discussion forum. (68.47.165.126 14:16, 26 December 2005 (UTC))

Social Justice and Social Change

If social justice means anything it would have to mean that the direction of societal change corresponds to the prevailing values societies claim to hold (ie a rational society). The history of the 20th century contradicts the values our societies claim to uphold (ie a irrational society). For example, classism, sexism, racism, and environmental degradation persist as social problems, contradicting the notion of equality, democracy, and freedom (ie social justice). A just society would be a society in which all members would agree to the order of that society as well as the processes unfolding within it. It would entail overcoming alienated social conditions (see Marx's Capital).

Forgive me, but there is much that I do not understand about this new version. Are you proposing a definition of social justice or commenting that what are accepted as norms of social justice must evolve to match or to drive the cultural values currently accepted by the contextual society. What definition of rationality are you using (references please)? There are one hundred years of history involving more than one hundred nations, so which particular piece of history are you relying on to demonstrate irrationality? What is "classism"? What is the "notion of equality"? And how does the one contradict the other? What links these four including racism and environmental degradation: the common denominator eludes me. Is this a second definition of social justice, i.e. "the notion of equality, democracy, and freedom" and if so, what is its relationship to the first apparent definition? Is this definition of a "just society" different to the definition of social justice? And where exactly does Marx say that social justice overcomes social conditions? Sorry to be so lacking in understanding. Please humour me with an explanation. David91 07:05, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Ok, since you asked, I will forgive you (too, as I did with SillyBilly) and will “humour” you with a response.

I suppose I am proposing a critical working definition of “social justice” (merely a start, in which participants in wikipedia could validate). One that does not suggest that “what are accepted as norms of social justice must evolve to match or to drive the cultural values currently accepted by the contextual society” (this seems illogical, a step below irrational) but one involving the reconciliation of the contradictory values espoused in what is called “modern society” (a historically specific social order and process, hence, the talk about change above), where Enlightenment ideals (equality, freedom, and democracy) are “projected” as the goals of society and are simultaneously undermined by an economic system that is based on and reinforces structural inequalities (ie ideological racism, sexism, and classism – see classism.org, “Classism is the systematic assignment of characteristics of worth and ability based on social class. It includes individual attitudes and behaviors; systems of policies and practices that are set up to benefit the upper classes at the expense of the lower classes, resulting in drastic income and wealth inequality; the rationale that supports these systems and this unequal valuing; and the culture that perpetuates them.” Along with environmental degradation).

The way I see it, “social justice” involves increasing human agency and actualizing democratic normative ideals that are at the heart of the “social contract” between society and state, or what should be a “rational society”. By rational I mean the means/end relationship, or “purposive rational action”, derived from Weber. I shall “humour” you with some quotes from the Protestant Work Ethic:

“The aim of a man’s life is indeed moneymaking, but this is no longer merely the means to the end of satisfying the material needs of life. This reversal (incomprehensible to the superficial observer) of what we might call the “natural” state of affairs is a definite leitmotiv of capitalism, although it will always be alien to anyone who is untouched by capitalisms aura (12).”

It [capitalism] obviously had first to come into being, and not just in individuals, but as an attitude held in common by groups of people. The origin of the attitude is what needs to be explained (13)…We shall use the expression “spirit of capitalism” for that attitude which, in the pursuit of a calling, strives systematically for profit for its own sake in the manner exemplified by Benjamin Franklin (19).

Business, with its ceaseless work, had quite simply become “indispensable to their [those with the "spirit of capitalism" attitude] life.” That is in fact their only true motivation, and it expresses at the same time the irrational element of this way of conducting one’s life, whereby a man exists for his business, not vice versa (23)…He “gets nothing out of” his wealth for his own purpose—other than the irrational sense of “fulfilling his vocation”(24)…Economic rationalization means the increased productivity of labor (26).

Today’s capitalist economic order is a monstrous cosmos, into which the individual is born and which in practice is for him, at least as an individual, simply a given, an immutable shell, in which he is obliged to live. It forces on the individual, to the extent that he is caught up in the relationships of the “market,” the norms of its economic activity.

Nothing is ever “irrational,” in itself, but only from a particular “rational” point of view. For the irreligious man every religious conduct of life is “irrational,” and for the hedonist every ascetic conduct of life is “irrational,” even if it should be a “rationalization” when measured by its ultimate value. If it helps to achieve anything at all, I should like this essay to help to reveal the multifaceted nature of the seemingly unambiguous concept of the “rational”.

You may also want to take a look at Habermas’s Theory of Communicative Action if you get access to the library again.

Now, “social justice” fits within this modern framework. But the post-modernist deny such a framework. For example, according to Foucault (for which there is debate about whether or not he is indeed a “post-modernist” or “post-structuralist” or neither, but I’ll side step that for now) “the idea of justice in itself is an idea which in effect has been invented and put to work in different types of societies as an instrument of a certain political and economic power or as a weapon against that power. But it seems to me that, in any case, the notion of justice itself functions within a society of classes as a claim made by the oppressed class and as justification for it (see “Human Nature: Justice versus Power” the link I provided in the external links section).”

Now, the post-modernists are in contrast with Marx, who believes that “alienation”, or the type of relationship or split between individual and society, can be overcome. As Istvan Meszaros (1970) claims in his book “Marx’s Theory of Alienation”, “the “transcendence of alienation” is an inherently historical concept which envisages the successful accomplishment of a process leading to a qualitatively different state of affairs.” (see Marx's Theory of Alienation) I'll leave it at that.

And, finally, to quote Marx:

The realm of freedom actually begins only where labour, which is determined by necessity and external goals, ceases; thus in the very nature of things it lies beyond the sphere of actual material production…Freedom in this field can only consist in socialized humans, the associated producers, rationally regulating their material interchange with Nature, brining it under their common control, instead of being ruled by it as by a blind force; and achieving this with the least expenditure of energy and under conditions most favorable to, and worthy of, their human nature. But it nonetheless remains a realm of necessity. Beyond it begins that development of human power, which is an end in itself, the true realm of freedom, which, however, can blossom forth only with this realm of necessity as its basis. (Capital, vol. 3, p. 820)

Again, just a start. (68.47.165.126 06:48, 29 December 2005 (UTC))

Most interesting. Thank you for taking the time to begin explaining your point of view and for pointing me to Classism (there is always something more to learn). I most certainly did not anticipate this information as the source of your proposed insert. Since you mention Habermas, I suppose your phrase, "a critical working definition" is a Critical Theory/Critique definition in the spirit of the Frankfurt School (?). So what "society" or "societies" are we going to talk about? I used the phrase "contextual societies" because I did not want to be specific either in terms of history, geography or politics. In India, for example, the Varna caste system has been in operation for two thousand or more years. As Westerners dedicated to the ideals of cultural imperialism (see Said's Orientalism as an analysis), we could apply our value system and claim, inter alia, that the system generally and the abuse of the Dalits in particular are against our norms of social justice. But what are the evolutionary or revolutionary processes that produce societal change? If the primary drivers are endogenous, exogenous judgments are irrelevant as the British discovered when they ruled the subcontinent. And since this caste system has survived for so long (see Foucault on the notion of institutionalised pouvoir) presumably it appears relatively rational and socially just to those who control the discourse and manipulate the power mechanisms within that society.

Hence, I am not interested in a page on social justice that adopts a particular point of view, although balanced pluralism is more than welcome. I am more than happy to work with you to produce an element that argues whether Marxism or Critical Theory has made a significant contribution to the debate on what constitutes social justice. Indeed, with little work, some of what you have written above could comfortably be included. I think the best place to insert new material along these lines would either be in the last paragraph on the Rawlsian view or under "Observations" or under a new heading on Critical Theory. However, the text you have actually inserted is neither clear in its meaning nor balanced in its point of view. I have therefore moved it to the "Criticism" section for the time being. To some extent, I will rely on you since I am largely bed-ridden and must rely on my increasingly fallible memory (and what I can find on the net). I therefore invite you to propose text for insertion on this page. And this includes amendments to the existing text if you feel that it could be improved. David91 09:15, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

You are correct, I use the concept “critical” in the spirit of “Critical Theory”, but a spirit not necessarily exclusive to the Frankfurt School (ie feminism, post-colonialism, post-strucuralist, even some post-modernist share a similar spirit). The societies to be critical of are “modern societies”, for which most of the world could be categorized, though the level or degree of “modernity” may vary from place to place. (Of course, a debate concerning the viability of the concept “modern” is in order). So, in India “traditional values” are in obvious conflict with “modern ones”, more so than say the United States where the Protestant Work Ethic took stronger hold, where the modern “assimilated” traditional inequalities such as patriarchy and racism to itself. Now, we are at the dawn of “globalization”- understood to be one the most terrific revolutions since the Industrial or French. As such, “national identities” are undergoing transformation. A good question is: do we live in a global society?. If so, from a point of view in line with the US Constitution, it cannot possibly be democratic (but these are normative ideals for which globalization is in conflict with). If it were democratic then India would be able to resolve the tensions between its caste system and the processes of “globalization”, in particular the rationalization (see above) of its economic system (see the contemporary debate on “outsourcing”) From a “critical” POV, “social justice” would have to (have to!) mean the reconciliation of “facts and values” (necessity and freedom). You say that India “appears relatively rational and socially just to those who control the discourse and manipulate the power mechanisms within that society.” One could also say that it appears just to those who are dominated by it (ie a President’s constituents may be the victims of power mechanisms. Of course, “victims” implies a value judgement). But what is the reality? And are we alienated from it? For example, if we would want to feed all the hungry people in the world (ie a value) why would we not be able to (ie the facts)? And why would we want to live in a world where hungry people were not simply allowed to die but were taken care of (ie a just/rational society)? These questions, reveal the essence of "modern society". The contradictions between facts and values.

I have read the wiki policy on POV and understand what you mean now. My insert did not adhere to the NPOV value. As such, I will resubmit my contribution in this discussion in due time and with your help insert it as neutral as possible into the article. My arguments with sillybilly were to derive (unconsciously, I must admit) an understanding of the values he would claim to hold and measure that to the facts (deletion of some text and not others). I appreciate our exchange. I would not have been able to figure that out or have written the above with out it (or have structured the thought). Thanks for the help and take care of yourself.

You are most welcome to Wiki. Any time you feel you need guidance, let me know. All the best. David91 10:27, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism

Someone should quote von Hayek, saying that social is a "weazel"-word, which eats the meaning of the word it is attached to. I'm not a native English speaker, so I'd better not write it myself, but I think it should appear in criticism of this notion. HB

"Social Justice" is a theory that is far from universally accepted. To many, it is a bald attempt to elevate entitlements into the realm of "rights", and dispenses with the concept of equality before the law in favor of preferential treatment towards favored groups or individuals. Some discussion of this would improve the article. Is this acceptable?

It's not a theory, it's a term used to convey an egalitarian view of the world. Having enough food, clothing, shelter and protection from harm are hardly entitlements, and people who have carried the burden of centuries of genocide, enslavement, domination and oppression deserve more than being told by people who already gained wealth, status and power through "preferential treatment towards favored groups or individuals" that preferential treatment is unjust. -AdmiralBlur

social justice is often a term that is used very broadly and i think is a bit hard to define. i agree with AdmiralBlur, social justice is not a theory. my perception of social justice is exactly opposite of it dismissing equality for preferential treatment. the point is to correct inequality and injustices. though i would imagine people in favor of issues that fall under social justice would have a different concept of it than those who disagree with those issues. the definition of social justice should probably adequately cover both sides.--Datajunkie 07:42, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Seems to me social justice is not purely a party political green concept. The article should be merged with Global Green Charter. Or should have Global Green Charter in its title. Laurel Bush 12:46, 11 May 2005 (UTC).

"Having enough food, clothing, shelter and protection from harm are hardly entitlements"
They are entitlements if they are provided by someone else against their will. If I needed it I would hope someone would help, but of their own choosing and not by force through the tax code.
It seems to me that the concept of social justice applied to the board game "Scrabble" would be that; you have different players with different skills. Some players also put in more effort and look longer at their letters to make longer words, but social justice applies only if every player winds up at the end of every game with the exact same score. This world view only works on black boards on college campuses and never in the real world. To many people social justice is an excuse to infringe on people's property rights (ie Mises.org ). -Ronwan

It's ironic to cite the example of a game when criticising a body of thought as not applicable to the real world. Your analogy is flawed. Social justice is not necessarily communism. Not all "players" can actually enter into the "game" if they are, for example, starving or subjugated to thinly veiled servitude. Neither can all players continue playing if some can deny others of certain necessities. Also, there are no verified absolute win or loose scenarios, reality is assumed as continuous, and a score has undefined value when a player leaves the game permanently. We don't even need to go into whether skill and merit are properly rewarded or the possibility of cheating.

Social justice ideas have influenced the policies of virtually every government in the industrialized world. Even those countries with the most liberal economic policies implement some basic programs. --Vector4F 00:39, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Just because you are starving and I am not does not give you a right to my money. Similarly, just because I am rich and you are poor does not mean that I am denying you wealth. Fortunes are made and lost by the efforts of individuals; those that have not are those that have not achieved. Life is indeed very much like a game... 'players' that cannot successfully compete lose, and stop 'playing'. Yes, this sometimes means the death of those who fail. Even so, this does not permit them to steal. Nor, by extension, does this allow them to designate someone else (ie: government) to steal for you (ie: progressive income tax to fund welfare). Endovior 07:30, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

But life`s not a game - maybe it`s that for you in case you`re rich, but to speak of a game in front of so many poor and miserable people is disguisting, just like your argument that a progressive income tax would be STEALING (as if the rich could possibly use all the moey the own)! I mean, what do you say to a famliy father whos children are hungry because their dad can`t find a job and receives no social welfare because of people like you? "Sorry man, but your kids will just have to die because this is the game"? How can ANY human beeing so cruel? And, in my opionon, starving GIVES you the right to take away money from rich persons. That`s because fortunes aren`t "made and lost by the efforts of individuals", but made of unjust production ways where most individuals have not the slightest chance of getting a fortune! Or where do all the workless people come from? Are all of them lazy and stupid? NO - the market creates them! (Hawk)

[edit] Social justice is a theory!

Social justice is explictly a theory accepted by political philosophers. Sadly, the name has been hijacked by politicians who use its emotive qualities for their own purposes so, since this should be neutral, it must start from John Rawls to establish the conceptual framework. If it is considered appropriate to go on to look at some of the real world distortions, there are many to choose from. David91 20:32, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] John Rawls page?

I deplore that this entry has now been turned into a John Rawls page. Yes, he is definetely important, but the entry should not start with him, but with a more common definition of social justice and only later give thim as the "theoretician" of social justice. Many information is now merged into the Rawls theory thing. This blurs the line between different conceptions about social justice - and there was such a concept before Rawls, wasn't there? Str1977 08:02, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Yes, there have been many attempts to define social justice in abstract terms over time. I selected Rawls because he would be regarded as the major contributor to the continuing debate over the last thirty years. I would have no objection to other philosophers from Aristotle and Plato onwards being included in a neutral examination of what constitutes social justice. The problem I had with the direction of the proposed entry was that it seemed to be randomly picking political usages by different political parties without any attempt being made to establish an intellectual framework for the concept. I consider it intellectually lazy to do no more than list who said what and to critique statements outside their context. So, if the consensus is that I have overemphasised Rawls, I am happy to produce a different introduction identifying trends in the philosophical analysis of the concept or, if you all prefer, I'll wander off and think about something else. What does the Wiki world say? David91 10:15, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

No, no, David, no need to wander off. I appreciate your posts on Rawls. I just think that he should not be heading the entry. It should go like: 1) a standard, general explanation of the topic 2) and then you can put in Rawls as one of the main philosopher on the topic. 3) Other approaches that are now too much merged into the Rawls field. Str1977 10:33, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

OK, I have now written a completely new set of opening paragraphs but I don't want to hog the limelight, so I shall step back to allow everyone else to pitch in. David91 20:57, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

Two weeks have gone by. I for one, David, am very pleased with this article, although I'm not qualified to approve or disapprove of its content. I've stopped in occasionally just to see if you've dotted all your tees and crossed all your eyes, lol. Maybe a comma here and hyphen there as well. Thank you for allowing me to be a part of it all :)). I've learned a lot. RogerK, 9 June 2005

"What Justice is not a social action?" I find this statement/question, under the heading "Criticism" and categorized as a belief, to be out of place under any heading in this article . Does anyone else feel this way? RogerK, 9 June 2005

Thank you for commending my punctuation. I started off in school with a slate and chalk under the care of a fierce lady who insisted that every letter be properly formed and that every semi-colon should have a point. I have not involved myself with much of the material that was already present on the page when I arrived. It all seemed a bit contentious. As to the line you have identitifed, I offer the opinion that, as framed, it is not a criticism of the "notion" of justice as alleged. Actually, I think it a rallying cry for more justice. But then, at my age, I frequently misunderstand what people are saying. -David91 05:58, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've been lurking for a while, and previously every time I thought I saw an area where I could make constructive changes, I waited a few days and someone else got around to it first. I want to mull some things over and review some texts before I plunge into this, but I believe there is room for some refinement here. The trick is to dignify critiques of social justice yet not to simultaneously dignify propaganda (for example, the notion that funding humanitarian programs is "penalizing" or that decelerating an ongoing concentration of wealth necessarily constitutes "favouratism," [as opposed to being a remedy for corruption and preferential treatment of entrenched elites.]) Obviously critiques must be presented in the interest of balance, yet some of what I read in that section is simply at odds with hard empirical data (for example, is it really true that attempts to improve public health through medical socialization/nationalization or improve childhood nutrition through robust social services are "expensive and always fail," or should we make some effort to let reality constrain that type of bold ideological assertion?) I may have some thoughts on editing sections beyond "Criticisms," and I don't want to make lots of tiny edits, because even with the revision control system here I worry about being a nuisance with a long series of tiny changes as opposed to a few editorial passes. In any case, this is the first article I'm intent on modifying in substance, I intend to take things very slowly, and I have some reading to do before I make any real changes at all. I just wanted to chime in to forewarn of my intentions and to solicit any advice from more experienced users as make my first effort to actually do something with content here. Demonweed 06:07, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

I went ahead and did it. As is often the case with me, I probably used passive voice a bit more than people like here. However, I thought the end result was an articulate presentation of social justice critiques without resorting to the outright assertion of falsehoods. In most cases I went for phrases like "is thought to" or "could" so as to produce text that was strictly neutral. In one case I did use the word "imagined" because the myth of welfare state idleness is soundly refuted by the actual unemployment rates in every single open society where social justice has actually served as the basis for major economic change. Since I did stay neutral with the point about dependence, I thought it was fair to address this related and popular objection to social justice policies with a hint of a wisp of outright skepticism. Given a significant number of actual welfare states and zero historical instances of enduring welfare-related unemployment gluts, it seemed that doing less would be misleading. My intent was to express objections to social justice as clearly as possible without lying (or preserving some of the remarks that were unclear, bordering on meaningless.) Hopefully, that is what I have done, though certainly I will understand if they evolve over time or even if someone can make a credible case for reversion. Demonweed 12:28, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

The term "Social Justice" was either coined or popularized by Pope Leo XIII in his encyclical of 1891, Rerum Novarum, (On the Condition of Labor). It rejected both Socialism and Capitalism, while affirming both the rights of unions and private ownership of property. It encouraged cooperation among all parts of society and rejected class conflict and unbridled economic competition. --Marcusscotus1 15:33, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Content of this page is fine, but why oh why does the term 'civil justice' redirect here? Social justice IS NOT the same thing as civil justice. One deals with our rights and responsibilities distinct from the power of the state, the other through the intervention of the state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pshoemaker (talk • contribs) 16:28, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Commonwealth or American English style

The article was created April 13, '02 in American style. A major contribution was made December 15, '04 in American style. No Commonwealth style English had been used to this point. A smattering of minor edits were made after that in both styles. On May 29 David91 unilaterally converted the article to Commonwealth English and has since vigorously reverted or changed any variation. This was and is improper. Wikipedia style is that both conventions are correct, but that an article follows first usage. Therefore the article needs to be maintained to American English style. Note that in researching this, if it had been the other side, I would have supported David91.Pollinator 02:31, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Apologies. I therefore leave it to you to convert all the spellings, usages and constructions to US English. David91 06:43, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Attn: Pollinator what you say, may be the case, but NO ONE here, that has made major contributions to this page seems to have a problem with Commonwealth English.

Those that you have mentioned have contributed GREATLY to the popularity of this page, look at the links to it. Please just make sure that you are consistent since this seems to be your very own personal sticking point, I can assure you that if I dig into the anals of "wiki policy" I can justify a few more major changes to the generally accepted character of this page. I have made a NUMEROUS amount of contributions to this page, BTW, of which, David91 has made regular Commonwealth edits upon. I'm not screwed up about it. Are you just getting around to reviewing this page? We don't care one way or the other really, just don't screw up a good thing with half-ass edits. "Do the thing right", if you got the time.

- An American that ain't messed up with the Queen's English

[edit] Added Progressivism template

I added the progressivism template, as social justice is interlinked with the historic progressive cause and party's. --Northmeister 05:03, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

That's rather too simplistic an analysis. Varying concepts of "social justice" have been used by nearly everyone in the political spectrum, from Communists to Liberals to Progressives to Conservatives to Nazis. --Delirium 10:04, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reverted POV edit from ANON

Although I actually agree with a bit of the POV of the Anon user, it was not an encyclopedic entry and it did not have an edit summary. If we are to include such an edit, we likely should discuss it here first. Kukini 20:22, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rationale for Reverting Blanking

I reverted the blanking of the Progressivism template, as its deletion appears to be based on a political POV and not backed by any verifiable documentation. From what I can see the progressive movement can stake claim to active use of the term as thusfar defined in this article. Kukini 14:02, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article lacks much about the general use of social justice

This article has a lot of theory in it, but not much about how social justice is understood by normal everyday people who seek to promote social justice in normal everyday situations and hope that if enough people do this that the world may eventually become more a of a socially just place. I would like to add a section at the beginning before we get into the technical stuff that sets out simply and plainly what social justice as an ideal held by many people the world over is. Then people can read on to see the difficult stuff. The following is taken from a speech by Carmen Lawrence, but it will form the basis of what I will say. I will of course rephrase it and source it when I put it on the main page.

H.G. Wells and his socialist friends enunciated a series of principles (which formed the basis of the later United Nations Declaration on Human Rights), the first of which deserves to be repeated since it captures the essence of social justice: Every man is a joint inheritor of all the natural resources and of the powers, inventions and possibilities accumulated by our forerunners. He is entitled, within the measure of these resources and without distinction of race, colour or professed beliefs or opinions, to the nourishment, covering and medical care needed to realise his full possibilities of physical and mental development from birth to death. Notwithstanding the various and unequal qualities of individuals, all men shall be deemed absolutely equal in the eyes of the law, equally important in social life and equally entitled to the respect of their fellow-men.

This view is exemplified in the United Nations assertion that: Human rights are based on respect for the dignity and worth of all human beings and seek to ensure freedom from fear and want. The more traditional view of human rights limits them to civil and political rights but increasingly, this view has been challenged as too limited in scope. The UN, for example, has added crucial social, economic and cultural rights, including the right to an adequate standard of living; the right to education; the right to work and to equal pay for equal work; and the right of minorities to enjoy their own culture, religion and language. These are all objectives of social justice policies. In this formulation, poverty itself is a violation of human rights. Poverty and inequality can also be seen to undermine human rights by fuelling social unrest and violence and increasing the precariousness of social, economic and political rights. JenLouise 05:23, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Intro not so wonderful

Also the first sentence is pretty clumsy. Social justice refers to conceptions of justice applied to an entire society. The social part of Social Justice refers to The Social not to Society. That is conceptions of justice applied to those things that lie in the social realm (as opposed to the economic realm for instance). Social justice does not mean redistributing wealth so that all people have the same. It means creating equal access to resources. That means at the most basic level, that, for instance, all people on this earth have equal access to water. This doesn't mean that all people on earth can get clean water with lots of additives like Fluorine just by turning on a tap. It simply means that everyone could drink clean water if they wanted to. So if I can come up with a better very general sentence about what Social Justice is, I will change it if nobody has any problems. JenLouise 05:03, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

A broad definition of social justice is social justice reflects the way in which human rights are manifested in the everyday lives of people at every level of society. This is taken from a Just Comment publication (Volume 3 Number 1, 2000) and I am going to reword it to form part of the introduction.JenLouise 05:23, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

And why was the following deleted from the intro? The right-wing also has its own conceptions of social justice, but generally believes that present day society is already just. If this is meant to be a balanced article, why remove references to use of social justice by Right-wings but leave the lefties there? I think it should go back in. JenLouise 05:35, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to whoever deleted this sentence a second time. Can we please discuss it here? I think its important to not make this article one sided saying that it only about left-wing ideas. Its not. Balancing the article requires at least specifying that right-wing people also use this concept, but they just don't see society as unjust. JenLouise 03:16, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I'd reverted to the earlier version before I checked here (checked the talk page, but didn't notice the addition up here). I also reverted the addition of the phrase 'an ideology of' before the word 'equality', which strikes me as either pointless or tendentious (and also messes up the grammar, given that the sentence is 'conceptS of ... and equality'). My opinion: JL's right that something needs to be said about rightwing notions of social justice; but the point that not all rightwingers think that society is currently just is fair enough. Thoughts? Cheers, Sam Clark 20:35, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I deleted the sentence because it is incorrect that right wingers also believe that society is not just. Examples are; taxes are too high, income redistribution is theft, affirmative action is racisim, etc. But I also thought that the comment was not necessary in relation to the topic so chose not to edit and instead remove. The concept of balance in an article that is discussing the ideology of one side of an existing arguement is redundant. In this case social justice is primarily a leftist ideal and based on an ideology of equality. So the basis for removal is that the sentence was both incorrect and unnecessary. If you feel that it is necessary to mention the right you should mention how they attempt to define social justice differently and how they set about trying to achieve that. Thanks for the opportunity to discuss.

Yes, as I said, I agree with you that many rightwingers think that e.g. redistribution is theft. As I note lower down this page, I think the problem with this article is that 'social justice' covers too many different notions: an egalitarian ideal; a catholic social doctrine; the philosophical question of distributive justice. On the third understanding, there is certainly a right wing idea of social justice (Nozick's utopia, in which contracts are kept and property held by those who are entitled to it, rather than according to any overall pattern, for instance). Perhaps the leftwing/rightwing distrinction isn't really what's relevant here, though: the term 'social justice' is mostly used by people who think current society unjust, and that's the significant point that's being made in the introduction - it's a rallying cry for change. Incidentally, please sign your posts (with four tildes, "~"). Cheers, Sam Clark 09:29, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plato was talking about justice

Not social justice. There is a difference. The term social justice was not used until 1848. Social justice is a political term that describes the desire for equitable pay. Social justice and justice are not the same thing.

http://www.aworldconnected.com/subcategory.php/80.html#socialjustice http://www.comune.venezia.it/atlante/documents/glossary/nelson_glossary.htm

Social justice is not (just) "a political term that describes the desire for equitable pay". I won't go deeply into this because it is referred to in the article, but equitable pay is about money and money is related to economics. Social justice is about things in the social realm not things in the economic realm.

However, while you may be right that the early philosophers were talking about justice in general and not specifically social justice, i think that it would be better to move the paragraph you deleted to a section about the historical basis of the term because it is impossible to understand social justice without understanding justice.JenLouise 03:44, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A couple of factual errors

I've cut a couple of things: 1. a sentence or two in the introduction which asserted that Social Justice is essentially concerned with human rights. This is just factually false: consider Peter Singer, for instance: pro social justice, but anti-HR. 2. the very odd claim that Locke was a utilitarian. --Sam Clark 11:04, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi when I put the stuff in about human rights I didn't mean in anyway to imply that Social Justice is essentially concerned with human rights. What I was trying to say is that in general terms, people who believe in Social Justice, and who fight for social justice, believe in a social justice that is based on human rights. There is obviously some divergence between what "laymen" beleive social justice is and what it is in academic literature and politics. I think it is important to have both views of social justice represented in this article. So let me try and write a paragraph for the end of the intro that says this and we can discuss it if you still don't agree. JenLouise 22:51, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi - You're probably right that much non-academic (as well as plenty of academic) talk about social justice is closely related to human rights, and I like the revised intro. Cheers, --Sam Clark 10:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Peer review request

Editors interested in this topic might like to take part in peer review on a new version of Global justice I've been working on. Cheers, --Sam Clark 11:49, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism

Ok, let's discuss the topics that should be covered by the criticism section. I, for one, believe that any superficial criticism of vague left-wing notions of social justice (such as the ones that currently dominate the criticism section) are off-topic at best and POV at worst. There are a million possible interpretations of social justice. Why select a specific one for criticism? By criticizing left-wing social justice, we are promoting two POVs: (1) the POV of the critics, and (2) the POV of the left, in the sense that we are endorsing the left-wing view of social justice as the correct one.

Besides, if you look at the criticisms, you'll see that most of them are based on social justice themselves (for example, the view that taxation is unjust).

So, the old criticism section is POV, completely misses the point, and, let's not forget, it is also unreferenced. I see three very good reasons to get rid of it... -- Nikodemos 03:38, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree about the current criticisms section. As for what should replace it, the problem seems to be a more general one with the article, that 'Social justice' means many different things to different people, and that these different meanings aren't clearly distinguished here. I'm a political philosopher, and I therefore think of SJ as a synonym for distributive justice (i.e. the question of what would be a fair distribution of goods like wealth, respect etc.), but SJ also refers to a form of Catholic political activism, to a left-wing ideal, etc. To be honest, I think a lot of the articles in the justice category need revising (see my proposed revision of justice, for instance); perhaps the revision of this article needs to be part of that wider effort... Cheers, --Sam Clark 16:31, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the criticism section firmly establishes that it is one side of the debate. I also think it is important to have in the article. Perhaps it just needs to be balanced by criticism of other conceptions of social justice. Also the first section on objective standard needs to be expanded or removed. It offer nothing to the article in its present one sentence format. JenLouise 23:47, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm pleased with the criticism section as it addresses many of the applications of social justice being promoted today. If the left has hijacked the notion, that should be included in the criticism section as well.208.255.179.254

An article on social justice in general should not include criticisms of particular versions of social justice, any more than the article on law should include criticisms of, say, Iranian law. Besides, the section was little more than a collection of personal opinions. -- Nikodemos 23:06, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

That is hardly the same thing. Law exists as a concept separate from the way it is instituted in a particular country. The whole point is that social justice does not exist as a concept separate from the way that different people intepret it. Now matter how Law is operationalised, the abstract definition of law applies to all of its incarnations. This is clearly not the same for social justice. You cannot objectively say that the philosophical conception of social justice is more legitimate than the Catholic conception of social justice, etc. Therefore each conception of social justice is just as legitimate as every other, and as the article deals with them all (as it should) then the criticism section should as well. JenLouise 00:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

But social justice does exist as a separate concept. You need go no further than Rawls' A Theory of Justice to see that you can discuss the principles underlying social justice without describing its content.

Besides, the criticism section, as it existed before, attacked one conception of social justice from the perspective of another conception of social justice (it attacked the left from the right). What's the logic in that? -- Nikodemos 01:13, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes lets limit the criticism of social justice to only shallow mindless support of it when in reality social justice is just a scam invented by the left to make pathetic people feel like victims so they will vote for the democrats. When people really are treated unfairly it is called oppression, not "lack of social justice". This only happens when people don't have freedom. There is only one cure. REVOLUTION and WAR. America is a fee country and thus people are not oppressed and thus most people aren't willing to fight in a civil war in this country.

The communist propaganda artists in the universities try to brainwash stupid people with concepts of "social justice" in the hopes of votes for the democrats. In the 60's they tried to start a civil war in this country. If the leftist feel so strongly about "social justice" why are they not fighting in the streets for it? Because they hope their brainwashed dupes will do their fighting for them. 69.208.162.25

No comment... -- Nikodemos 02:06, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Back to the constructive discussion, I don't think attacking one perspective from another perspective is logical, but I do think that listing some of the criticisms of the different perspectives is logical. If not, I think that the article itself should at least state why it does not have criticms... I can't actually think of a sentence at the moment, but something that explains that the content is not missing, but has purposely been left out - particularly now that there is a stub tag there. Otherwise it looks like we're inviting people to fill in the criticism section with criticisms directed at their particular conception of social justice (i.e. what's just been deleted) - at least it looks that way to me. JenLouise 02:51, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I will try to write a few sentences explaining the difference between criticism of a particular school of social justice and criticism of social justice in general. -- Nikodemos 05:44, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

This seems like an appropriate entry to add to the outside reference list:

• A Dangerous Obsession by Thomas Sowell Asteriks 00:27, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More criticism

The article fails to distinguish what might be called the "true" aims of social justice from the stated aims as listed by Rawls. Rawls lists nothing that the Framers of the Constitution didn't also espouse, and if proponents of social justice stuck to those aims, they would have no movement and no name. But they do have a movement, and it hints at support for more aggressive government redistribution of wealth or other state means of achieving "equality" (maybe that's not accurate, but there's something there). Otherwise why speak of "social justice" at all, instead of just asking (as we all ask) that our existing laws and societal goals of fairness be upheld in all cases where they are not? The movement is adding something, and the article hasn't hit the nail on the head yet. --Eisenmenner 14:17, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you and I think that this article needs a serious rewrite. At least, there's certainly no reason why so much focus would be made on John Rawls opinions while so many other great philosophers expressed various opinions on the concept of "social justice". I tried to improve the intro a few weeks ago and I think it is merely acceptable now. Also, what's the point of the green politics series in this article? It seems to me that this belongs first to the socialism series. --Childhood's End 15:11, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] intro

Removed "justice = economic status" because this is not true for all conceptions of social justice. Also moved a summary paragraph from Rawls section into Intro. JenLouise 11:14, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Social justice mostly is about economic status. We should revisit this sentence. --Childhood's End 11:51, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Sure - let's discuss, because I completely disagree with that statement! =) Social Justice as espoused by the Catholic Church, the Greens party and hundreds of social justice movements is (very broadly) about equal access to resources by all people, regardless of any status, economic, social or otherwise. Perhaps if you can explain which conceptions of social justice you are talking about, and how they are about economic status we can work something out. JenLouise 12:30, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

You are right by saying that the concept of social justice has Catholic roots. But I am not certain that we should mix this religious context with the main subject, unless we expand a fairly complete article with an "Origins" subsection.

Otherwise, as you said, social justice is about equal access to resources regardless of economic status - the purpose is thus mostly to create economic equality. I am not sure that I see your point there... Can you develop? --Childhood's End 13:03, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

You are, I believe, equating equal access with equality. These are not the same thing. The concept of social justice that I am talking about, says that everyone should have the same chances, not that everyone should have the same outcome. Also social justice is about a lot more than just economics. A major part of social justice is everyone getting access to their basic human rights, many of which are not economic-related, but to do with dignity, freedom of expression, religion, etc. A large part of social justice is actually according each person with the dignity that is owed to them as a human being. Often trying to improve people's economic status can actually lesson that person's dignity (because of the method not the goal), which social justice does not agree with. Therefore social justice is not just about economic status. BTW I said "Catholic Church, the Greens party and hundreds of social justice movements", these latter two are not religious, but they still hold a very similar concept to that of the catholic social teachings.

I think that saying that social justice is "mostly" about any economic-related is wrong - for many of the conceptions of social justice. What, I think, we are trying to acheive with this article is to say that there are many different definitions and conceptions of social justice, that are sometimes quite dissimilar, even at odds with each other. Therefore it is important not to include any sweeping statements that don't actually apply to all. It would, on the otherand, be good to create a section about a particular conception of social jutice that is just economic focused if you beleive that this conception is prevalent today. JenLouise 03:58, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I fear that you are giving too much focus on the idealistic concepts of social justice rather than to what it actually is. The concept of social justice that you are talking about (same chances) is, objectively, a fallacy - no social justice program can ever fix the differences between our geographical starting places, our heritages, our personal characteristics, and so on. The way that most social justice programs ever tried to achieve "same chances for all" is by an economically-focused program that redistributes resources in a way that is considered to "reduce" these and other differences. Nonetheless, if your point is that despite being flawed or misleading, this is the philosophical backbone of a significant social justice trend of thought, it's alright to present it in the article. I would only avoid giving the idea that this is what social justice is.

As for dignity and human rights, the article already says that both the left and the right agree on their importance, which is an appropriate mention imho. I would thus avoid associating these priorities with "social justice" specifically.

Overall, I dont know of course, but you seem to have been sensitized to a truly non-economic view of "social justice". However, I disagree that this is a common trend of thought. Most of the time in our world, social justice is a call for wealth or resources redistribution. The article must comply with WP:Undue weight. Again, while there are many people both on the left and the right who believe in basic human rights and dignity, what usually differentiates these people is their economic views of society. I have known few people who believed in "social justice" while also believing in capitalism. --Childhood's End 13:33, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I am happy to emphasise that the non-economic aspect of social justice is related to "philosophical backbone of a significant social justice trend of thought", however I don't agree when you say that it is not "what social justice is". I could agree with "is not what social justice usually acheives" or "is not the way that social justice is usually acheived" etc. However for many people "social justice is the ideal" - what has happened before and continues to happen is not "social justice" but an attempt to bring about social justice. Part of this bringing about may include economic redistribution of a type but this is/would only be a small part of it and therefore should not be given undue weight. When you say "Most of the time in our world, social justice is a call for wealth or resources redistribution" I would venture that this is an opinion that an "outsider" may form because all they see or hear about are the efforts that are given attention by the media, politicians, etc. That does not mean that it is an accurate representation because for the many, many people involved it is not.

With regard to dignity/human rights, just because both the left and right agree on the importance of human rights, it doesn't negate the fact these are associated specifically with the type of social justice that I am talking about. The relationship is not exclusive, just because they are associated with social justice does not mean that they can't be associated with other (perhaps conflicting) things as well. If the article does not reflect this then it needs to be clarified, but the emphasis should not be removed.

Regarding the non-economic veiw of social justice, I would say that it is definitely a common trend of thought among both social justice proponents of a catholic and secular nature. The church, and many, many social movements conceive of social justice as being much broader than economic redistribution. I am not claiming that they do not propose this as one possible step (among many others) in achieving social justice (some don't, most probably do) but that is not what social justice is. The emphasis on dignity and human rights is part of the evidence that this is not the case. The provision of dignity and human rights are in many cases completely separate from, and sometimes conflict with economic redistrubtion.

Our discussion is becoming very long, and while I find it interesting, perhaps we can distill it back to some core issues. My issue was that I disagreed with the "justice = economic status" inference that was part of the intro and removed it. I think I have given sufficient background for this. If you have any issues with the article in its current form, perhaps you could list them (and be specific if possible) and we can work towards a solution that is agreeable to us both, and anyone else who has an opinion. JenLouise 03:05, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Structure of article

I have added sections into the article so that it begins with a discussion of what social justice is from the viewpoints of a number of areas that use the term. These include Rawls, the Catholic Church, The Green, Social Justice movements and other uses. If someone wanted to know what social justice is, they are most likely looking for a definition provided by one of these (or posibly other) particular groups. Just because one may not agree with the concept of social justice as used by any of these groups does not mean that it should not be included. If anyone knows any other viewpoints that should be included, please let me know, or better yet add them in yourself!

I've also removed the "beliefs" section for the timebeing, as it is unreferenced and unspecific. If anyone has any quibbles with this, perhaps we can discuss how to better include it in the article. JenLouise 12:32, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Too much focus on Rawls

This article gives way too much focus on Rawls. Shorter mention should be made of his thoughts along with many other thinkers of equal, if not more, importance. I can think of especially Hayek, but he would mostly belong in the criticism section, although a summarization of Hayek's view and of a few other important thinkers' views should appear alongside Rawls'. If nobody can work this out, I'll try to do it eventually. Any comment is appreciated. Also, is there any reliable authority that could support that Rawls is the authority regarding social justice? If there is, that would support giving him a larger role. --Childhood's End 13:49, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be important to put other's people's thinking in here - there is definitely no reason that Rawls should be featured so prominently, my guess is just that no one else knows much about anyone else. So please add in anything you know. From what I can remember I think Hayek's thought would go in the criticisms section. JenLouise 09:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cameron, Conservatives and Social Justice

The Conservative party in the UK have recently started shooting off about 'social justice' - check out their website. 131.111.200.200 19:23, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Social Justice in the Jewish tradition

We should add something to the article on the importance of social justice in the Jewish tradition. I do not consider myself competent to edit on this topic myself. Thank you. -- 201.19.77.39 09:40, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Social Justice vs. the free market

The latest addition to the criticism section reads like opinion, not fact. It's opinion I generally agree with. "Social Justice" is, IMO, an inherently self-contradictory term - part of the collectivists' broad effort to wrap up totalitarianism in the language of the enlightenment. But while I'd love to see a well-written and well-cited inclusion of what "social justice" truly is, this latest addition is unvarnished opinion. --jdege 14:46, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Defining "social justice" in introduction

I'm not even sure what that first paragraph is trying to say, my jargon meter is pegged.SecretaryNotSure 05:36, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

That's the whole point. "Social justice" isn't about justice, or society, it's bafflegab intended to hide naked grab for political power.

--jdege 16:15, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm trying to de-re-bafflegab it a little... and I think your point is an important one -- I used the term "sometimes conflicting" set of values... but I haven't developed that idea yet. I was thinking of something along the lines of pointing out that one of the values of social justice is peace and non-violence, yet another value of social justice demands that money or property be "taken by force" from one party and given to a more deserving party. Or that social justice demands the right to expression, yet social justice also demands that certain speech deemed improper or hateful be censored... and so on. Maybe you can come up with/find/support some other examples?SecretaryNotSure 16:47, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree entirely with SecretaryNotSure. I think if rather than saying "one of the values of social justice is...", you said "proponents put forward differeing views of what social justice is and how it can be achieved, and some proponents favour peace and non-violence while other proponents demand that money or property be "taken by force" from one party and given to a more deserving party" then that would be accurate. I think one of the main problems in defining social justice is that (as pointed out in the intro) the term can be used in many different ways. (By the way what is "amorphorous"? Do you think it is meant to say "amorphous"?) If we were to include some of the contradictions in the article I think it is important to put them forward as differing views on how to achieve social justice.

I don't think the introductory sentence is quite there yet (although a vast improvement on what was there originally!). I'd like to work on the first sentence but I've taken the liberty of making a few small changes to the rest of the paragraph in the meantime. Also I struggled with the sentence beginning "Economic justice..." - when did we start talking about economic justice? So I've removed the 3 references to economics and referred it back to social justice. Hope the change meets with approval.

So to the definition of the term "social justice"...

To say that "social justice is the quality of right-ness" implies (to me) that it can be poor quality or good quality (eg. you would say the quality of light in a room is poor or good), but poor quality would actually be social injustice. To say "we want social justice" is to say "we want a society that is socially just" so it is a state, something that a society achieves (or does not achieve). So social justice is a quality that a society can possess. But that doesn't lead me to an actual sentence of what social justice is.

So, for help I checked out the justice article page, which begins with "Justice concerns the proper ordering of things and persons within a society." This doesn't actually define what justice is but what justice is about.

So one possibility would be to begin with something like:

Social justice refers to conceptions of justice applied to an entire society.

However, after spending almost an hour only coming up with that very poor start, I was trawling through the history of this article and found the original introduction that was actually vandalised, but then edited rather than reverted. It originally looked like this:

Social justice refers to the concept of a just society, where "justice" refers to more than just the administration of laws. It is based on the idea of a society which gives individuals and groups fair treatment and a just share of the benefits of society. Different proponents of social justice have developed different interpretations of what constitutes fair treatment and a just share. It can also mean distribution of advantages and disadvantages within a society or community.

The only bit missing from this introduction is:

As there is no objective, known standard of what is just, the term can be amorphous and refer to sometimes self-contradictory values of justice.

So perhaps the first paragraph could be replace by something like:

Social justice refers to the concept of a "just society", where justice is achieved in every aspect of society, rather than merely the administration of law. However, as there is no objective, known standard of what is "just", the term "social justice" can be amorphous. It is generally thought of as a society which affords individuals and groups fair treatment and a just share of the benefits of society, however different proponents of social justice have developed different (sometimes contradictory) interpretations of what constitutes fair treatment and a just share.

(There's at least one too many "however"s in there but its late.)

What do you think? JenLouise 17:03, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Justice is about the establishment of fair rules, individual behavior according to those rules, and the fair arbitration of disagreements that arise under those rules. There will always be winners and losers under any system. What makes it just is that 1, the rules are the same for everybody, 2., the rules are fixed in advance, and 3., the rules are objectively applied. In a just system, everyone knows in advance what is or is not allowed.

"Social" justice is about giving some political faction the power to ignore the rules, to reward some, and to punish others, in an arbitrary manner, simply because they don't think the "right" people are winning.

The rest of it is eyewash, an attempt to wrap up the exercise of raw political power in language that confuses people as to what is actually going on.

That is why it is so difficult to find a clear definition. "Social Justice" isn't an idea, it's camouflage. Part of a deliberate and intentional fraud.

--jdege 12:48, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your views Jdege, but this page is for discussing how to improve the article, not debating the merit of the concept. If you have any suggestions for the article that comply with Wikipedia policies it would be great to hear them and we can work to include them in the article. However Wikipedia is not the place for personal views on any concept (whether for or against), except where supported by valid sources. Cheers, JenLouise 15:08, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

My point is that it is always going to be difficult to come up with a precise definition for social justice, because the authors of the concept didn't have a precise definition. It's a term invented as a political tool, not as a means of increasing our understanding. The more you work to pin down a precise meaning, the more obvious that will become. --jdege 13:46, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I like your lede, JenLouise. I would simplify the first sentence a little. Instead of

Social justice refers to the concept of a "just society", where justice is achieved in every aspect of society, rather than merely the administration of law.

I would say

Social justice refers to the concept of society in which justice is achieved in every aspect of society, rather than merely the administration of law.

I'm not happy about having the word society twice, but I can't think of a good synonym. Community? Polity? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Malik Shabazz (talk • contribs) 22:49, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

You could change the wording to below, but its a bit clumsy and I don't know that it adds anything. I would be happy use the above definition as I don't personally have a problem with the two 'society's. JenLouise 05:59, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Social justice refers to the concept of a society where justice is apparent in all aspects, rather than merely the administration of law.

Justice is precisely and exactly about the resolution of individual cases, within the law. Social justice is an attempt to create political power by the channeling of envy and spite.

It is difficult to find a precise definition, it's been a term used since its invention without a precise definition, specifically because it isn't a term that was intended to aid in reasoned discourse, but rather it is a term designed to generate a desired emotional reaction. --jdege 15:22, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

jdege, your criticism of the concept is valid. To me, many of your previous criticisms have seemed imprecise, but I think your last sentence hit the nail on the head.

Please find some WP:Reliable sources that make the argument you've described and let's incorporate into the article in an expanded "Criticism" section. The first criticism, that it's intentionally difficult to define because it's intended to provoke an emotional response and shut down rational debate, should probably be in the lede, right after our attempt to define what people mean when they use the phrase. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 01:09, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

JenLouise, I agree that the last suggestion ("apparent in all aspects") seems awkward. Two "society"'s isn't a very big deal, and I think it's an improvement over the current lede. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 01:09, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I have replaced the first sentence of the introduction with the one suggested as it is an improvement on what already features in the article.

I think making the point in the introduction that the term doesn't have a precise definition, and perhaps that it doesn't even have just ONE definition is important for the article, but I think we need to be very careful about the reason we give as to the difficulty of a definition. There a large numbers of people who believe passionately in social justice as defined in a particular way. These are not people in government, or with political (or other) power or academics who write theories etc, but normal people going about their life who believe that the present society is unjust. There are people who believe in structural discrimation, where people with particular characteristics (eg. gender, race, geographic location) are disadvantaged through no action of their own, people who believe that governments pander to popular opinion, people who believe that media consciously or unconsciously marginalise or demonise particular populations. And you can bet that many of these people believe firmly in reasoned discourse, they believe passionately in acceptance, not envy or spite and their main concern is to see that every person is receives their fundamental human rights. There are also a large number of people in the world who believe in radicalised forms of social justice, involving depriving rich people of their rights, taking their money away and giving it to poor people, etc. There are people who use the term to manipulate, to get power, and all sorts of things. To say categorically that "Social justice is this or that" is to deny that the term means different things to different people and all of the meanings are as valid as each other. So to say something like "The concept of social justice is intended to shut down rational debate" is wrong. What would be correct would be something along the lines of "[Insert names and sources here] believe that the concept of social justice is...]. I understand that many people don't believe in the concept of social justice or don't like what they think it stands for, but it is important not to let personal point of views influence the article.

Interestingly, regarding jdege's definition of justice above, you will find that the justice article does not reflect this precise and narrow statement, but shows that justice is a difficult concept to define as so many people have different and often conflicting views of what justice is. Perhaps we can take some notes on the way the justice article has handled the problem and model this article of it? JenLouise 04:28, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] About social justice and social Darwinism

I don't think this belongs in the criticism about social justice:

Fourth, supporters of social darwinism believe that social justice assists the least fit to reproduce, sometimes labeled as dysgenics, and hence should be opposed. [1]

The reason is that the source doesn't say that, an without a source this is just a POV. Any comments on whether this should remain in or not?--Ramdrake (talk) 19:46, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't you be consistent and delete the other content in the same paragraph that is unsourced and hence a POV as well?

The social justice and social darwinism articles make it pretty clear the concepts are political opposites. I think the articles explain the concepts sufficiently to leave this be. --Zero g (talk) 22:31, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] How is "social justice" any different than "socialism"?

Do the supporters of "social justice" have any ideas that specifically disagree with the ideas of "socialsm"? If not, why do we need two separate articles? Grundle2600 (talk) 19:54, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

While there may be overlap between social justice and socialism when the phrase is used by leftists, it is used by the right wing, the Catholic Church, the Green Party, and others.

According to the article:

The right wing also uses the term social justice, but generally believes that a just society is best achieved through the operation of a free market, which they believe provides equality of opportunity and promotes philanthropy and charity. Both the right and the left tend to agree on the importance of rule of law, human rights, and some form of a welfare safety net (though the left supports this last element to a greater extent than the right).

Two of the seven key areas of Catholic social teaching are pertinent to social justice

Social Justice is one of the Four Pillars of the Green Party.

Hope that helps. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 00:35, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. Yes, that helps. Grundle2600 (talk) 20:19, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality

No one is working for a society that they regard as unjust. Yet it is clear that only some people working to change society would describe themselves as working for "social justice" -- and they agree on other matters about it too. The lede should make what sort of actual views are regarded as social justice. Goldfritha (talk) 01:39, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the second paragraph of the lede says what you're asking for:

Most individuals wish to live in a just society, but different political ideologies have different conceptions of what a 'just society' actually is. The term "social justice" is often employed by the political left to describe a society with a greater degree of economic egalitarianism, which may be achieved through progressive taxation, income redistribution, or property redistribution. The right wing also uses the term social justice, but generally believes that a just society is best achieved through the operation of a free market, which they believe provides equality of opportunity and promotes philanthropy and charity. Both the right and the left tend to agree on the importance of rule of law, human rights, and some form of a welfare safety net (though the left supports this last element to a greater extent than the right).

Is there something more specific that you think is missing? — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 02:17, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

You mean besides the problem that "The right wing also uses the term social justice" is -- entirely imaginary as far as I can see?

Social justice is terminology used by specific movements, and this ought to be made clear.69.183.162.93 (talk) 23:53, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fascist historical connection

Social Justice, as a phrase, originates with Rev. Coughlin and the 1930s strain of nationalist socialism that was popular in the states. It's since taken on a more internationalist flavor, but I think the connection is still worth mentioning.

[edit] More systematic construction of article

Given the importance of this topic, I would suggest a more systematic construction of this article.

A proposal might be as follows:

(A) Theories of Social Justice Rawls, Dworkin, Hayek, Nozick

(B) Social Justice in Religious Traditions Judaism, Christianity/Catholocism, Islam

(C) Social Justice Political Movements Civil Rights Movement, Green Party

In terms of the theories of social justice, the contrast between the liberalism of Rawls and the conservatism of Hayek/Nozick are really of essential importance to an understanding of the subject. A decent explanation of this would dramatically improve the quality of the article. The difficulty right now with this is that it briefly touches on several areas without giving much of a coherent understanding of what are the tensions and dynamics of the subject.

Cicero79 (talk) 23:09, 24 September 2008 (UTC)Cicero79

Or...

(C) Social justice in:

• Democracy & Politcal Movements (Green Party, Seperatist parties, etc.)
• Corporate Power & Enviromental Movement( Social responsibility, Corporate watchdogs, Greenpeace, etc.)
• Economic Inequality (Labour movement, Unions, etc.)
• Racial Inequality (Civil Rights movement, etc.)
• Gender Inequality (Womens rights, Gay rights, etc.)
• Health Inequality (Universal medical care, Poverty, etc.)
• Aboriginal Issues (Land claims, Fishing & Hunting rights, etc.)
• Peace Movement (Action networks, Disarmament, etc.)
• Human Rights (Capital punishment, Corporal punishment, Prisoners rights, Euthanasia, Rights of the Unborn, etc.)

(Iota 9 (talk) 18:12, 25 September 2008 (UTC))

[edit] proposed new definition

'''Social Justice, sometimes called civil justice, are actions taken by members of a society trying to bring justice that law(s) cannot provide. Because the law(s) do not exist, the law(s) do exist but are not enforced, or because law(s) exist but need to be changed. Actions for social justice are, or can be, in conflict with each other. (Iota 9 (talk) 17:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC))

After trying to find definitions in dictionaries, I’m surprised to see that many did not have social justice or civil justice in the dictionary. Of the ones that did, the definitions are not similar and in some cases vague.

In the talk page, there are already several who are not satisfied with the intro (myself included). I believe this a more clear and neutral definition that will help others to understand what social justice is.

The intro, and dictionary definitions, seem to view social justice as some new concept. I believe its been around for a long time with it’s roots in Jewish culture; at least as old as the ten commandments.

I believe the word “concept” leads us to believe that it’s just an idea. I believe it to be more of “action”. With out the action, no social justice would be achieved. Thus I used “actions taken by members of society”

“Social justice is where the societies law(s) cannot provide justice” - it’s as simple as it can get.

“Because the law(s) do not exist” - example would be the lack of laws concerning cloning, the use of animal DNA in human genetics, or multinationals lack of social responsibility to provide a social safety net, etc. “The law(s) do exist but are not enforced” - example would be fair wages for the same work done by women in the work force, or equal access to educational institutes for African Americans in the USA during the 70’s.

“Because law(s) exist but need to be changed” - best example would be the abolition of slavery.

“Actions for social justice are, or can be, in conflict with each other” - example would be the rights of the unborn vs. the rights of a woman to choose.

I hope this definition will help to bring a better understanding of social justice in the area of politics, religion & civil matters. Hopefully it will also help to bring more ideas to expand the article and to be more useful to those who are looking for answers to social justice issues.

Also, I to believe there is to much Rawls in the article. It make social justice seem like a philosophy.(24.85.63.18 (talk) 11:26, 25 September 2008 (UTC))