Talk:Serfdom

Serfdom was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. Reviewed version: January 14, 2006

[edit] Villeinage

This article needs to be integrated with the article Villein, which covers the same ground.

[edit] Vandalism

It appears someone has attempted to do a buffer overflow on this page on May 18, 2005.

      including this statement 

A serf is a noble who is bound to the land. Serfs formed the highest social class of the feudal society. --Prunetucky 04:12, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Old talk

Hi, I updated this page because the term serf is back in use in some circles (programmers, webmasters, etc.). I sincerely hope I didn't make an infringement on some copyrights, because I used the Microsoft trademark...

... But Russia retained the practice until February 19, 1861. ...

Is this date Julian or Gregorian ?

what about serfs in england there's little mention of them?--SPOC 03:18, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I changed "Queen of England" because there is no such person. Not for hundreds of years, anyway. Skyring 10:50, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

what??? no mention of slavery in america? what about the current situation on many citrus orchards in florida?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.104.189.73 (talk) 19:43, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Stub

I think this article needs to be labelled as a stub. Done. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 21:18, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Moved to serfdom

I moved the article from Serf to Serfdom, it is more common on Wiki to have articles named like that. Besides, 90% of what links here links to serfdom, not serf. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:39, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Failed Good Article

This article did not become a good article because there are no references. joturner 11:24, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Controversies

Some parts of our article appear to be controversial - I moved them here, as they are unreferenced either way. Please use references to support or oppose them.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 01:48, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

PS. Please note that the comments were made by User:Ben-Velvel on 11th January 2006.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 01:49, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

• "The last European country to abolish serfdom was Russia, in 1861." False. The Balkan europian countries abolished serfdom later
• "The Russian system of serfdom was based on the principle that the lord owned the peasant under his control, so he could dispose of his serfs as he wished: he could even separate them from their land." It occured not only in Russia, but also in the European countries

Two citations from the charter of Barons for serfs (Leibeigene), Schleswig-Holstein (North Germany), 1740. Nichts gehoret euch zu, die Seele gehoret Gott, eure Leiber, Guter und alles was ihr habt, ist mein (2, S.109). Translation:"Nothing belongs to you, the soul belongs to the God, but all that you have, your bodies, property, is mine". Der Bauer muss sein Bett nicht vor Abend zurecht machen, weil er am Tage nicht wissen kann, ob er noch die nachste Nacht in demselben schlaft "(1, S.17). Translation: " The peasant should not lay the bed till the evening as he cannot know in the afternoon, whether he sleeps the next night in the same bed " Ben-Velvel 14:01, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• "Serfdom persisted longest in Russia, where it" Longest?? The serfdom has come to Russia later than in other European countries and has been abolished earlier than in the Balkan countries.

Prior to the beginning of 17th century Russian peasants remain "free plowmen" who have the right of transition from one landowner to another annually during the so-called period "Yuriev day". A cancellation of this right is carried out in the code of laws from 1649 (Sudebnik). In Russian North, in Siberia, in Ural, in the Cossack regions in the south of Russia the serfdom never existed. (It is the most part of territory of Russia. ) On the contrary in many European countries the serfdom has arisen at 10-11 centuries.Ben-Velvel 14:01, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• "It's worth to mention, though, that de-facto serfdom was fully extinguished in Russia as late as in 1974 (Changes to Passport system, decree #677 by the USSR government), when peasants were for the first time granted identification documents, together with an unrestricted right to move within the country." The nonsense. After 1861 tens millions of Russian peasants moved from villages to cities... Before 1861 serfs made only third of Russian population

The serfdom is a feudal phenomenon when the landlords had complete power over their peasants . Stalin bureaucratic restrictions on movement of collective farmers in 1933-1956 it not the serfdom. Please don't politize a theme of a feudal serfdom by so arbitrary interpretations. These restrictions concern more likely to a theme of totalitarianism and excessively centralized state. By the way, restriction of movement even in days of feudalism was not the attribute of serfdom... By the way, persons receiving the welfare (Sozialhilfe) in modern Germany have no right to change a residence from one federal land in another. Is it a serfdom too? Ben-Velvel 00:43, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I do agree this particular example is inappopriate here. What about the above point?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 04:58, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

• "In prerevolutionary Russia a landowner's estate was often measured by the number of "souls" he owned" - how this correlates with the fact that serfdom has been cancelled in 1861 in Russia? Sorry, I am not really specialist... -- ABV

You're right, serfdom has been canceled in 1861. "Prerevolutionary Russia" corresponds to Russian Revolution of 1905 or Russian Revolution of 1917.--Vihljun 09:09, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

We need better pictures. What do you think about that one?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 03:35, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Found something better: a gallery] of Polish woodcarvings :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 03:46, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Days a week, or year?

"in the 13th century it was few days a year; in the 14th century, one day per week; 4 days in the 17th century and 6 days in the 18th century" Do these latter values represent days a week, or a year? 6 days a week seems an awfully high amount… The Jade Knight 00:56, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

A week. But IIRC it was per family (house?), not per person.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 05:50, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

The article needs to clarify this, then. The Jade Knight 05:43, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] um

has no one noticed the informal and personal website-ish style of the article? It doesn't sound like a wikipedia article at all- especially the heavy usage of parentheses and attempts at humor. 24.13.192.86 16:12, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I worked on it some, but I've just added a cleanup tag because I think it does indeed need more work. The Jade Knight 23:40, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I second this sentiment. One major flaw is that it speaks of serfdom as a single, unified thing, when in fact it was a very broad category of relationships, all of which had individual 'rules' and customs. It's almost like a book report instead of a piece of academic writing. 69.86.157.243 23:06, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Serfdom in England

I think the statement that serfdom lasted in England until the 1600s is flat wrong.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.72.132.82 (talk • contribs)

Dear anon, please elaborate and cite your sources.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:07, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it is flat wrong. What is needed is a source for the statement that serfdom (called in English villeinage) lasted to the 1600s.

It isn't completely wrong. I do not have a reference at hand but my memory is that formal law abolishing villianage didn't occur until the 168os and the Glorious Revolution. By which time serfdom was largely non-existent in England. The Black Death & The Peasants Revolt lead to a partial collapse in the system, afterwhich it merely declined with the rise of Free Labour. but these were not complete breaks. Jalipa —Preceding unsigned comment added by 57.67.164.37 (talk) 11:53, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Serf Disambiguation Page

Serf is currently a disambiguation page with two items - one link to this article, and one to Saint Serf. Seems rather silly, since Saint Serf seems likely to always be refereed to as such - not many people are on a first name basis with any sixth-century Scotts, so the likelihood that any of the 160-odd links to serf relate to him is pretty low. I'm changing Serf into a redirect here, and adding an "X redirects here" disambiguation notice at the top of the page linking to Saint Serf. Hope that's okay w/everyone, if not, apologies! -- Vary | Talk 02:06, 27 July 2006 (UTC) disambiguation notice at the top of the page linking to Saint Serf. Hope that's okay w/everyone, if not, apologies! -- Vary | Talk 02:06, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Not sure if it should go above or below the cleanup tag, so I put it above. -- Vary | Talk 02:09, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Serfdom Abolishment

The dates need to be checked. The one for Austria (1848) was plain wrong, it was abolished on 1. November 1781 by Joseph II in the so-called Untertanenpatent.

[edit] Servus

Lat. servus means slave, not servant. The Latin term for serf was colonus. With the gradual disappearence of slavery into "colonate" serf and servant appeared with their modern meanings. I've edited consequently and added my reference (Dhont) to the list. --Sugaar 23:40, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge proposal

Oppose Serfdom seems to be a general article, whereas villein is largely about its application in England. However there is a need for integration between the two articles by measn of cross-reference. Peterkingiron 00:13, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Soviet Union

Can anybody provide a document that farmers were restricted from movement from their lands?--213.141.142.52 19:30, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I second that--169.232.119.69 (talk) 08:50, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Just added a dispute warning to the article--169.232.119.69 (talk) 08:54, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

The article cites (in text) two sources - a 1944 book and a USSR decree. In order to dispute this, you need to address the content of the book or quote accurate sources of your own. Applying a tag of your own is WP:OR. It would not surprise me if, in a state as heavily controlled as USSR, it was impossible to leave a collective farm without permission, giving rise to a state of quasi-serfdom. But I know little of the matter. It helps if people log in so that the rest of us know who you are. Peterkingiron (talk) 09:43, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

The 1944 book, by Hayek, is an attack on the British welfare state, not an analysis of the Soviet Union. Hayek is clearly using serfdom as an image for the unfreedom of many totaliarian governments, including the USSR and Nazi Germany. The decree cited is one ending alleged serfdom. I am going to delete this section. While the crimes of the Soviet Union are important to note, they shouldn't be allowed to confuse the important topic of serfdom. Zimmermana (talk) 13:58, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I am not an expert on the Soviet Union, but The Road to Serfdom is described in its article as a very important book. I have not read it, but it can hardly be an attack on the (present) British welfare state, which was essentially the creation of the post-1945 Labour government. Hayek expressed a view which appears to be regarded as an important one; otherwise he would not have got a Nobel Prize. The subject is properly included in this article and at a proper length. His POV may be one that you do disagree with, but it is a legitimate subject for an article or (in this case) a short section. When I finsih writing this, I propose to remove the tags. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:14, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Results of merge of villein

I have looked at the former article on villein: this seems to have contained considerable material that has not adequately been merged inot the presetn article and is accoprding now effectively lost. The redirect from the former article was incorrectly written and I ahve corrected that, but I am not at all convinced tha the merge was done properly. However I would like to see other views before I consider reverting the old article. Peterkingiron 09:09, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

hi

[edit] England 13th century?

What's the deal with this? I mean, it's not as though England was any exception to the rule by having serfdom become gradually more unpopular. In Wallachia, many peasants actually existed as free peasants since the inception of the independent Wallachian state. To say that England was more progressive in this field, when it abided by the same feudal codes as other Western states, is a simple Anglo-centric distortion of the truth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.167.86.231 (talk) 02:40, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] rennasance

that was great —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.216.244.9 (talk) 15:51, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Freeman

In the section "becoming a serf" it says a freeman becomes a serf by ...... But then in the following section "Serfdoms class system" it seems to list freemen as a type of serf.

In the middle ages, it seems kings were the only true freemen. Even the nobility owed services to their king. Each level of the nobility owed their service to their higher level and expected service from those below them. This heirarchy also included people who owned no land, the only service they could provide was their labor. These people were not considered part of the nobility and had few if any rights or personal property. They were tied to the land. The question is, were there any people who existed outside this heirarchy? Did they have any legal status?

If a member of the nobility lost their land, through incompetence, not being willing to provide their service, or by conquest. What status are they? Do they become serfs automatically, or are they let loose into society?

If a noble didn't regulate their affairs properly and didn't fufill their obligations to their serfs, not protecting them from raiders, etc could the serfs attain somekind of free status? Would the higher level of nobility simply take over and rule directly or give it to some one else. In such situations would the former nobleman and his family become serfs or would they retain some level of freedom serfs didn't enjoy? Would they have land to farm, or would they keep their manor house?

How did traders and people who owned ships fit into this system? were they free people? Did they have a system like serfdom? They might not own any land, but they have wagon(s) or ship(s) which provides them with income/independence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.235.215.119 (talk) 00:09, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

In England you had the King

The you had Nobles (only those individuals with Titles)

Then you had Commoners -- which consisted of :

                                              Knights
                                              Squires
                                              Franklins & Yeomen (free peasants owning land)
                                              Burghers -- Free townsmen (inc Ship owning Merchants)

Under these free Commoners you had the unfree:

                                              Villians 
                                              Cottagers

And then you had the masterless men

                                              Vagabonds  (Tinkers & Roma??)
                                              Outlaws

Bluntly "Freemen" by the very definition were not Serfs, had a legel & social status.

Nobles frequently cited failure of protection to remove Kings, and Kings nobles. Failures of Lords to live up to their duties were often the subject of Law Disputes. Jalipa —Preceding unsigned comment added by 57.67.164.37 (talk) 12:17, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Slave?

Hi there. The infobox on slavery caught my eye. I think there is a distinction between serf and slave, at least at a conceptual level. Shouldn't we remove the "Slavery" infobox? Dr Benway (talk) 15:24, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Needs to be reworked as a whole article

I am no expert on this topic, but ran across through a link from another page. IMHO, this article contains a lot of good information, but it's organization is poor. There is a lot of repetition of material, and seemingly contradictory information. Terms change in usage throughout. A timeline of some sort would be very helpful in understanding the sequence of events and migration of the feudal system. The small edits and contributions from a lot of people, while I'm sure very helpful, are apparent and have made the article hard to read. It would be good for someone to do a wholesale rework of this article. Tjamison (talk) 19:45, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] China and household registration

Technically a similar system of household registration still exists in rural China, but it no longer works effectively on account of the expansion and opening of the Chinese economy, and the advance of technologies in China.

The system of household registration is very different from anything that has been mentioned in the article. Having a household registration in the city allows you to get governmental services, but there is no regulation preventing you from moving from rural to urban areas.

Roadrunner (talk) 13:55, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Seprerate Villeinage from Serfdom

Or at least split up the article. Serfdom in Eastern Europe (particularly Russia -- where serfs could be bought & sold) is very different to the Anglo-Norman institution of Villeinage. Likewise , Scandinavia, Germany, Italy & Spain all had their differences. Let alone the Non-European forms of Serfdom.

This article incorrectly gives the impression that Serfdom was a uniform system -- it concentrates on Anglo-Norman Serfdom with clunky add-ons that discuss Germany & Eastern Europe.

Slavery in England was abolished for "Christians" in circa 1090 CE, but was later re-introduced (via African Slavery) in the 1600s.

Also the dates of emancipation -- For England it gives the date for the abolition of Copyhold Tenure?? (1925). There were no Serfs in Twentieth Centaury Britain!!?!

This is not when Villeinage/Serfdom was abolished. Nor is it even the abolition of feudal Manor Courts (I know of at least two that are still surviving in England). As I have stated above -- In England, Villianage went into sharp decline after the 14th Centaury (Black Death, Peasant Revolt, Land Enclosure etc..) and was finally abolished in the 1680s, by which time it was virtually non-existent.

Copyhold refers to a property owner having a "copy" of the Manorial Rolls indicating that they (or someone in the past) owned a parcel of land. Freeman were/are subject to the authority of Manor courts -- most of which fell into abeyance with Land Enclosure 1400s to 1700s.

Jalipa —Preceding unsigned comment added by 57.67.164.37 (talk) 15:47, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

As a matter of fact copyhold was a tenure by which a person held land. The "copy" was an extract from the manor rolls provided to the copyhold owner as evidence of his rights, rather as a leaseholer has a lease (though not quite like it). Peterkingiron (talk) 21:38, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with Villein (feudal)

Villein (feudal) needs to be merged with this article in the "Villeins" section. It does not contain enough information to stand on its own. Neelix (talk) 15:49, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

The other article certainly says rather little. Unless its author intends to expand it, I would support merger. However, the present article has become unfocused through trying to cover too much ground, and I wonder whether forking off some of the content into separate articles on serfdom in particular countries might not be desirable. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:33, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. I believe we need a stand-alone article on villeins, which are a specific type of the wider phenomenon of serfdom. Obviously the stub needs expansion, but we should allow indefinite time for that to materialise. Even as it stands, the stub provides a quick definition for readers who simply want to know what villein means, without having to plough through the entire article on serfdom. EraNavigator (talk) 08:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

On reconsideration, I think we need articles on serfdom/villeinage or each country or region. The present Villein (feudal) article, might usefully be transformed into one on England or England and western Europe, leaving this article to provide worldwide coverage. Unforatunately, I lack the detailed knoweldge to deal with this. Peterkingiron (talk) 21:44, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of Laogai reference

I removed the China Laogai reference at the end of this article as the webpage referenced is just a news release without further sources to back up its claim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucidus (talk • contribs) 19:24, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Return to serfdom"

In fact before 1932 nobody (even in cities) in the USSR had passports. There were certificetes of identity and other documents. Starting at that time passports were gradually given to deffrent categories of population, beginning from city population and ending with villagers. So the villagers were a nothing special case. They of course had identification documents and were not restricted from moving around the country, you can for example evaluate the rate of urbanization (movement of population to cities) in 1930s-1950s. If a person moved to a city, he had granted a passport - that was the rule. So I suggest to remove obvious lies from this article.--Dojarca (talk) 12:39, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Also search for "1975 667 колхоз" returns nothing related to the decree or something. It is known that the farmers received passports by 1959. I suggest to remove this information from the article as a hoax.--Dojarca (talk) 12:51, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bad use of "both"

The article currently reads "However, both half-villeins, cottars or cottagers, and slaves made up a small percentage of workers." I don't understand how the word both could be used in a list of three, or does perhaps the comma imply that cottars or cottagers are another word for half-villeins, and the slaves are the other group referenced by the word both? This needs rewording to make some type of sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.178.152.69 (talk) 22:17, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Good point. I do not recall the term "half-villein", but I wonder whether the article is here pretending to cover much of Europe, while in fact referring to Domesday England. I think that slaves disappeared soon after. I suspect that half-villeins is intended as a synonym for cottars. Peterkingiron (talk) 10:16, 7 October 2008 (UTC)