Talk:Salah

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To-do list for Salah:	edit · history · watch · refresh
Here are some tasks you can do: Wikify: the sections Quranic Salat, Salat Timings of Quran, Salat Asr (Al-Wusta) and Quran. Cleanup: the sections Quranic Salat, Salat Timings of Quran, Salat Asr (Al-Wusta) and Quran. Other: Standardise Qur'an references (at present, there are about 5 different formats). Standardise spelling of Qur'an (to that). Include more Arabic text.

--- In all honesty, there is not need to place the Shia and Sunni sections together. This gives a false impression that condones division into two sects when it absolutely does not. Perhaps making a separate page for Shia practices and Sunni practices would be better so that the one who actually came to learn about Salat would not be confused?

I moved the page information from namaaz to Salah because Salah is the more proper term and is the term you will find in Islamic texts. Namaaz is a localization of the term salah in numerous languages such as Urdu.

ThaGrind 08:55, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling of 'Salat'

Are there any other variation to the english spelling of 'Salat'? The only problem with this spelling, I think, is that in the Malay/Indonesian language, the word salah literally means wrong. Could there be a variation? perhaps Solah or Solat? Thanks you. - Zaim 02:45, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It is an Arabic language word, and the salah spelling is the only one that makes sense in most transliteration conventions. By the way, Spanish language used to have the word azalá for "(Muslim) prayer", which is featured for example in the Cansinos-Assens translation of the Qur'an into Spanish.

I've seen "salat" used as a transliteration" far more than "salah," for whatever it's worth.

• • We've always spelled it "Salaah", the "aa" indicating that the second syllable is long. Zunaid 10:55, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

• The correct way to spell it would be "Sala'". The word only matters in Arabic and not in any other languages (since we're talking about an Arabic word).

In Arabic, "Sala'" is spelled: صلاة. Notice the last letter (Arabic is read right to left): ة.

That last letter is called "Ta Marbuta". That "letter" (techincally it isn't) is NOT pronounced unless there is a word after it. So it would be "Sala'" since there is no word after it.

Examples (Ex. 2 is probably wrong grammatically):

1) Al-bayt sala' The house of prayer

2) Salat ul-bayt Prayer house

Armyrifle 19:23, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't see a point of adding the Urdu word 'salat' as no words from other languages are present. IMHO it should be deleted. 'Salat' is more popularly known as 'namaaz'/نماز in Urdu thus making it further irrelevant. Sumair1 00:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Method of calculation

Would someone like to add (I will try as well) to add a section about the methods of calculation? I know there is ISNA (using 15degrees for Fajr) and some Egyptian one that uses 19.5 both using Sha'afi jurisprudence... there are about 5 main ones in total. What are the differences between schools? What are the differences inside the single school allowed? How do they choose their angle? Let's see if we can answer questions like that. gren 00:42, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

if you have ideas start the section here

The way in which prayer times are calculated vary from tradition to tradition.

Some external links follow

[1]

[2]

[edit] Text from duplicate article Islamic prayer, now a redirect

Muslims pray a brief ritualistic prayer service called Salah in Arabic, facing Kaaba in Makka, five times a day (a practice adopted from Zoroastrianism whose adherents too daily offer five diurnal prayers preceded by a confessional intention or niyat). The "call for prayer" is called Adhan or Azaan. There are also many standard duas or supplications, also in Arabic, to be recited at various times, e.g. for one's parents, after salah, before eating. Muslims may also say dua in their own words and languages for any issues they wish to communicate with Allah.

[edit] Service

How is prayer a "service"? What does "service" mean here? --Yodakii 08:19, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Service is NOT the right word. It comes from Roman Catholic Christianity, where the priest "serves" mass. Attending a mass is then attending a service. This has been imported into Protestantism, so that a "service" means a congregation meeting for prayer, hymns, and a sermon. That is completely wrong for salah, which is sometimes peformed in congregation, but possibly more often performed alone. It might be appropriate for Friday gatherings, which are communal. Zora 23:12, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sunnah Salah

I've added a new section detailing the different Sunah Salahs. Could people please look through and correct any factual errors that may have slipped in? Also please expand and add Salahs I may have missed. If someone can do tables nicely then please include a table of the Salahs showing number of raka'at for Fard and Sunnah. Also, a section on the times of day salah is NOT permissible is needed, if anyone has this info. Zunaid 11:18, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Standard Wikiwide spelling of different Salah's names

Would it be possible to come to some sort of consensus on this? Probably not, but we could at least have consistent spelling across Wikipedia articles. Some of the names in this article are different from the actual names under the Salahs' individual articles. Obviously there will be redirects from alternate spellings in search results, but within Wikipedia there should be a standard. Might I suggest: Fajr,Thuhr,Asr,Magrib,Eshaa,Jumu'ah,Witr,Nafl,Taraweeh Feel free to disagree, but for the sake of brevity please write your suggestions in a horizontal list. Zunaid 10:48, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I suggest: Fajr, Dhuhr, Asr, Maghrib, Isha, Jumu'ah, Witr, Nafl, Taraweeh.

I would also like to suggest standardising names of the other salaat, for example, Salat ul-Haajat instead of Salaat ul-Haajat or Salat ul Haajat or Salat al-Haajat etc... . I'm sure we can come to an agreement. MP (talk) 13:08, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I think Jum'ah & Salaat would be better . About witr & Nafl , both have an i sound , that is witir & nafil . What do you say . F.a.y.^{تبادله خيال /c} 13:49, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you about Salaat. As for your other suggestions, now that I think about it, I can't say either way which spelling to go for. If Arabic is your native tongue, I'll take your word for it. :) MP (talk) 14:14, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Arabic is not my native tongue , but thats how I have heard it being spoken by arabs . May be I should ask some arabic speaker about it . F.a.y.^{تبادله خيال /c} 15:40, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Fajr, Dhuhr, Asr, Maghrib, Isha, Jumu'ah, Witr, Nafl, and Taraweeh. As for Salat, I think it should be salat (note I'm the one who moved it from Salah), but I will settle for Salah. Salaat seems like a very uncommon English translitteration of the word. Note 332,000 results for Salaat, 9.5 million results for Salat, and 14.3 million for Salah. Note that searching for "salaat / salat / salah prayer" yields the same order. Nevertheless, I'm going for salat over salah especially based on what links here, which shows "salat" as the most common reference. joturner 18:06, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rakat table

The article is definitely in need of a table about rakats of fard , sunnah(maukada/ghair moakada) , wajib , nafil . I dont know how to make it , lol . F.a.y.^{تبادله خيال /c} 20:40, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Waqt?

Why don't translate waqt into time? I think its literal meaning is time, and in this case it's just a quantification of time.Aditthegrat 09:53, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup of article

The article could be cleaned up by briefly mentioning the types of optional salat and have 'main article' links shooting off where the prayers can be discussed at length at leisure. If nobody minds, I'd like to have a go at this. MP (talk) 09:45, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Just found this, which may also be useful: Types of salat. MP (talk) 15:08, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I've decided to work on my sandbox version of this article. I have a few queries:

• For the list of nafl prayers, should we state, for example, 'Salat al-Tarawih' or just 'Tarawih' and then have a main article link going off to Tarawih ?

• In the main articles for each prayer, at present, there does not seem to be things like, for example, 'Salat al-Fajr', but just 'Fajr' for the definition; should both be included ? This impacts on the first point above ...

MP (talk) 10:57, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Other Issues may affect Muslims in Space that are not Salat related. grazon 22:50, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Changes made and changes suggested

I reworded a little in a few spots and largely for the sake of clarity and flow. I moved the section on performing salat up so that it falls before the list of optional prayers, simply because it makes more sense to give the information on the core of the subject first and only then to go into supererogatory prayer information. I'd have done more, but didn't really want to step on anyone's toes. Therefore, suggestions:

• Additions: This article says a lot about "what," but very little about "why." A section on the place of prayer in the lives and belief structure of muslims, about what is said about the importance of prayer in the Qur'an, about where the structure of prayer comes from, and so on, would probably be useful. Also, since much of what is permissable/forbidden/etc. related to prayer is from particular hadith, it would be nice to have more references.

• The section on wudu: This could be significantly shortened, and my own inclination would be to eliminate the portion on the use of sand, or at least the parenthasied part of that section. There is a page on wudu which is more appropriate for getting into these details -- in the interest of readability and relevance here, I think it would be better to mention that it is a ritual cleansing process, the reasons for it being considered integral to the prayer, and to effectively leave it at that.

• Terminology: I changed a little here and there, but overall I feel this article sometimes uses Arabic terms in a such a way as might make it difficult for people unfamiliar with the terms to fully understand what is being said. It might make it more accessible to give the Arabic term and its meaning once and to use the English thereafter, rather than the reverse.

You state the problem clearly. Technical (or Arabic) terms should be explained when first used in an article. The meaning is rarely obvious from the context - unless you are an Arabic speaker, or already familiar with the terms.

I'm not as certain that you need to use English terms throughout - so long as the terms you do use are explained, the article would still make sense to new readers. - Paul 03:45, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

• Optional prayers: I won't do it myself, but I really feel that these should be moved off entirely onto a sub-page -- it is very long for the main page.

I'll come back and make some changes if no one has any particular thoughts as to the above. --M. Landers 08:26, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plans for major rewrite

If nobody minds, I would like to have a go at a major rewrite of this article soon. I have been working on my sandbox version, as has Liquesce. Our versions are very different from each other (as well as the current article), so there is scope for huge discussion. I would like to have a go at incorporating Liquesce's and my versions. My plans for the article are described in the talk page of my sandbox version. As has been suggested by a few people here, I also think that the optional prayers section(s) should be made into a new article (I have generalised this notion somewhat - described in the talk page mentioned above). MP (talk) 22:56, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I've decided to stick my neck out and go for the major rewrite. I've tried to keep as much of the original version as I can, whilst trying to maintain a compromise between the 3 different versions referred to above - in fact, nothing has really been deleted (just added and rejigged) and the main differences are:

• A better classification of salat into 4 types.
• Shortened sections on Nafl and Sunnah salat considerably (with main article links). Didn't have main article links on Fard and Wajib salat, as they are short enough already.
• New (as yet empty) section on 'Purpose of salat' and new sections on 'Preparation for salat', 'Supplications after salat' and 'Invalidation of prayer' (which should be renamed 'Invalidation of salat').
• A few more links (some of the links may be redundant - will explore later).

Comments appreciated. MP (talk) 18:39, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Keep up the good work - but Maghrib salat?

The page is looking good. Keep up the discussions and if necessary, the debating. This will ensure a high quality, objective page, and will serve as a good tool for Muslims and/or Dawah for non-Muslims on this widely used website.

My question is regarding the times of prayer. You (plural) have stated that it is permissible until Isha to pray Maghrib. Under the Hanafi school, it should be read as quick as possible. But under any school, it is agreed upon the hadith which narrated by Tirmizi, reported by Ibn Abbas that when Angel Jibreel (as) took Muhammad (saw) through the salat on two different days, in order to teach him the times, on the first day he prayed all the salat on the earliest part of their permissble periods, and intentionally on the second day at the end of their respective permissble periods - however, Jibraeel (as) lead Maghrib salat at the same time on both days, indicating that the traditional view of the end of the twilight period (which by definition could be until around the following Fajr) is in fact a very limited period (at least with respect to the other salats' permissible intervals). --The-pessimist 04:05, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Although this Hadith is 'Sahih' and it is agreed by many scholars that it shows us that delaying Maghrib is Makrooh. However the question then arises as to when does Maghrib end? If someone is unable to pray Maghrib at its earliest time, when can they exactly stop praying Maghrib? The simplest answer is that you can pray Maghrib until Isha, because as it has been stated in Hadith you have given, Maghrib is at the end of twilight, which can be until Fajr in some cases, but this cannot be, you cannot join Fajr with another prayer, and would mean you would be able to pray Maghrib, Isha and Fajr at the same time. So it is common sense to state you can pray it until Isha. I hope my reasoning is correct, if I can find any Hadith about Maghrib I will post them on here. There is a good source of information at this site [3] M2k41 15:24, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What about Muslims living near the poles?

I highly doubt Muslims living above the Arctic Circle or below the Antarctic Circle (few in number as they may be) are required to only perform ten prayers a year, so what special rules, if any, apply to them? — Ливай 05:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I believe they have to follow the prayer times of nearest place where the sun still sets. But don't quote me on that. M2k41 14:52, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Salat or prayer ?

The article uses 'salat' and 'prayer' interchangeably. Should we aim for consistency ? I see 3 options:

(1) Use 'salat' throughout.

(2) Use 'prayer' throughout.

(3) Use 'salat' and 'prayer'.

Can we agree on one of these options ? Once salat is defined, we should probably use 'prayer' throughout (this being an English encyclopedia), but maybe to avoid boredom, it would be prudent to use both (as is similarly done in Black Stone). MP (talk) 16:52, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Salat versus prayer poll

• Define salat and use prayer afterwards - this is an English Wikipedia. But we should make sure that the Arabic word (?) salat is defined with all it's connotations. MP (talk) 19:35, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Prayer means salat or dua. So, I don't think it should always say prayer to mean salat. Of course it can be used sometimes. But prayer can mean supplication (dua), and that is completely different. - MaryA756 15:23, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] When is it best to pray salat

In the article, it says:

"it is considered best to pray them exactly at the beginning of their periods, when the call to prayer (adhan) announces the time of prayer."

I believe this is not unanimously agreed upon. For instance, the Prophet is supposed to have delayed the Isha prayers often enough that people believe it is better to delay them and pray later. Similarly, in the afternoon, he is supposed to have delayed the afternoon prayers because of heat. This latter could however be ignored perhaps because this can be considered as an extraordinary circumstance. However, the first point needs to be considered.

In fact, there is a difference. It is best to pray in congregation and if it is concluded that it is best to pray early, then it is indeed only best so long as the congregation is held early in the times. However, if congregation is late then it is considered best to pray in congregation than to pray early.

[edit] Performing salat

Regarding the 'Performing salat' section, I propose that the current section be shortened and a main article link to Performing salat be made. Reasons:

• The current section looks too long and cludgy; more specifically, the supplications etc. take up too much space and there is just too much detail.

• There are actually minor variations on how salat is performed in different locations (even in the same country) and these should be documented too. For example, in some places in India, an extra supplication is made after the taslim.

I can see huge potential in creating such a robust article, especially as regards the second point made above. The only problem is that getting reliable sources may be a problem (I don't think that first-hand experience counts as 'reliable'). MP (talk) 19:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] history behind the salat

I remember reading in a book on the history of the Arab people that the salat wasn't always 5 times a day, but initially it was only observed twice a day. There isn't anything in this article that even says how the Salat came to be in it's present form.

You are right. I will try to add this history in this article. Szhaider 21:22, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] According to the Quran

According to the Quran According to the Quran there are 3 daily prayers. These are shown in Sura Hud (Arabic سورة هود) is the 11th chapter of the Qur'an. In 114.ayat, by (A. YUSUF ALİ) translation And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night: for those things, that are good remove those that are evil: that is a reminder for the mindful: (BY M.H. SHAKIR) And keep up prayer in the two parts of the day and in the first hours of the night; surely good deeds take away evil deeds this is a reminder to the mindful.

I hope this information will be added to this article :) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Astrolog (talk • contribs) 12:23, 25 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Jumu'ah

The Jumu'ah page was recently moved to Friday prayer. I'd like to invite editors to comment on the Friday prayer talk page over whether the current location of the article is okay or not. (p.s. please don't comment here, let's keep the discussion in one place.) Zunaid©® 11:05, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] In arabic it is SalaH not Salat

In arabic it is Salah, not salat. Pronouncing the 'Taa-Marbuta' at the end is a common mistake made by non-arabic speaking Muslims of the Indian subcontinent, e.g. Zakat instead of Zakah. See: [4] or [5] Aaliyah Stevens 17:05, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Eid prayers

Hi, anyone know why the article says (and in bold!!!) that shias do not pray for eid! If nobody minds it should be taken off, because it is absolutely wrong. theomidrezaei

[edit] Qur'anic readings

Which verses from the Qur'an are recited during prayer besides the first surah? Is there a set plan for them or can anybody pick whatever he or she likes? -- 77.7.128.245 17:49, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Salat of Quran

It is a different article. It should not be merged into salah. It has different ideology, concept & contents. "Salat of Quran" is different from "salah".

203.128.22.96 04:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Can you show any reliable sources that discuss this ideology? From looking at the article, it seems to be original research. → AA ^(talk) — 07:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Looks like it's more or less entirely original research to me. I also noticed that all the external links are to Qur'an Alone sites, which makes me think the page could have been created just to push a specific point of view. MezzoMezzo 15:11, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quranic References

References are Quranic not only Qur'an Alone sites.

Rana Ammar Mazhar 18:01, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More articles

There is an article (which used to be called 'prayer times') which I have renamed salat times. It still needs a lot of work. Should there also be a new article on Salat according to the Madhhab similar to Wudu according to the four Madhhab (this latter of which should probably be renamed - cut out the 4) ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mpatel (talk • contribs) 15:03, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jargon

I have added the {{Cleanup-jargon}} template to the article, because the article contains a lot of jargon. This makes it very hard to read for outsiders, for people who are not well versed in Islamic terminology. This begins in #Preparation, although the terms are explained somewhat there. An example, from #Witr: "Witr is performed after the salah of isha'a. Some Muslims consider Witr wajib while others consider it optional. However, Witr is most commonly offered with three raka'ah. ... To end prayers for the night after Isha'a, the odd numbered raka'ah must have the niyyah of "Wajib-ul-Lail", which is mandatory to "close" one's salat for that day." Generally, the only way to find out what a term means is by clicking the wikilink. Obviously it is great that there are wikilinks and that we have so many articles on this topic, but if there is no other way than to click the link, we run the risk of providing too little context and information to the reader. Aecis^Brievenbus 10:07, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

PLEASE make this article readable. It is not supposed to be instruction on how to perform prayers, it is to explain about these prayers. When every other word prevents you from understanding what is meant to be said, the article as an encyclopaedic article fails miserably. Please explain words like ablution, supplication .. Etymology is not the most important thing, it is an after thought.. given such relevance prevents people from reaching the parts that are informative. GerardM (talk) 08:55, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed this reads as instructions TO members of the religion (which is fine but not the purpose of an Encyclopaedic article), and it not particularly well written regardless. I will try to edit in the near future. collounsbury (talk) 12:26, 28 October 2008 (UTC).

[edit] Asr in the Evening?

I changed Asr to read afternoon, and not evening, as evening is often is often indicative of the time right before or after dinner, which is very subjective by country, but is usually 18:00 to 22:00.Brinerustle (talk) 09:17, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Zuhr?

The articale speaks of Dhuhr and Zuhr. Can this be unified? Is it the same? The linked article does not explicitly state Zuhr as possible transscription (just starting with z. --90.152.233.4 (talk) 20:47, 10 November 2008 (UTC)