Talk:Relaxer

"The choice of a Black person to relax his or her hair should be looked at no differently than that of a white person choosing to perm straight hair or straighten curly hair. It is simply a matter of style and preference." - This is not a neutral point of view. A NPOV would not include the word "should".

New Relaxer provisionally patented

A new relaxer was resently provisionally patented using an improvement on the old slaked lime and petroleum jelly recipe.

The new relaxer uses Petroleum Jelly, Glycerine, slaked lime, olive oil and a Manganese complex called CVD-45 said to bethe component responsible for color stability during relaxing.

Jan Coenraad van Duyker

I removed the following paragraph from the article:

"One of the reasons that African Americans use relaxers is to make their hair more manageable. African American hair is thick, and the purpose of a relaxer is to straighten and relax the hair. The relaxer is applied to the roots and as the hair grows out, the relaxer grows out (much like with hair dye), and the hair begins to return to its original state. Relaxers should be reapplied about every eight weeks. They can be done at home or professionally."

The position is that "perms" (as I would call them most naturally) makes hair more manageable. I disagree because what is meant by manageability is subjective. What is manageable for one person may be considered entirely unmanageble (and undesireable) for another. E.g., if you would like to have your hair braided, it might be disadvantageous to get a perm.

But I do agree that if your desired outcome is straighter hair, then a perm is makes it more manageable for that particular purpose - but not more manageable in general. It's an important distinction (to me). E.g., why on earth would a person want straight hair? Why would they want curly hair?

This is related to the "African Americans, Racism, and Relaxers" section that I've added to the article. One cannot reasonably argue that racism has nothing to do with the African American Perm Craze (TM).

I would not remove the section again if it was reworded in such a way as to indicate that straighter hair does not necessarily mean "unmanageable". I happen to LOVE my curly, thick, so-called unmanageable hair!!!!!!

--Lloydsmith2 21:48, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

I've revised it now, so please check it out. Also, just to let you know why I even included the section on racism is because of the following portions of the article, "Mostly associated with African-Americans" and "when African-Americans realized that washing and combing hair with a lye soap helped to straighten it". Since it singled out African Americans, I thought it was necessary to provide this alternate POV. Also, there were some disparaging remarks regarding "Afro-textured hair" (a new term I discovered here on Wikipedia which I'm quite fond of now) which I have since removed. --Lloydsmith2 23:05, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Okay. I'll try to tone it down and then ask for your approval. If you want to revise it, go ahead. --Lloydsmith2 23:05, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

This page makes way too many editorializing claims for an article about hair products. I'm sure racism had a lot to do with its popularity, but it needs to be toned down substantially.--Cuchullain 01:01, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Looks good now, I removed the NPOV tag and made a few minor edits and wikifications.--Cuchullain 23:08, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I think that the comments on racism in this article are completely uncalled for and extremely offensive. I think that they should be removed. Slavery has nothing to do with the reasons why people relax their hair TODAY. Again, I believe the section racism is completely offensive, and it should be removed. -- vanessawilliams

Well, I think they aren't and I'm going to add them back. Futhermore, I have listed a source. It's not your job to decide what's offensive or not. Just tell the story like it is. I'm willing to bet that you ARE NOT an African American. If you are, you are an incredibly stupid one. As you're an annonymous user, I don't think there's any reason to listen to you. I happen to be an African American and this is a real issue. Just the other day, an African was "reminding" me not to get a girl friend who has "nappy" hair. Furthermore, this section is needed because of the association made between African Americans and relaxers earlier in the article. When you cease being annonymous and are ready to bring this issue into the mental court of law, I'll reason with you. As long as you remain an anonymous coward, screw you man! :)

Lloydsmith2 07:20, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

As a matter of fact I am an African American woman; so you bet incorrectly, and your next assumption that I am stupid is also incorrect. We have two things in common; we're both black and we're both engineers. What a small world. I didn't create an acct, which is why I was anonymous, but you have inspired me to do so. I believe me opinion is valid, because I am an African American woman who uses relaxers on a regular basis, and I am aware of my reasons for doing so. Do you use relaxers? Your response to my comments are a complete overreaction, and for you to insult me and call me names based on my comments is uncalled for and plain disrespectful. I don't feel the need to disrespect you, call you names, or change or add to your comments; I don't know you, and I don't know where you're coming from, so let's get into this mental court of law you speak of... As a side note, the information you posted has changed, for the better, since I first saw it, and made my comments, which came around the same time that the other users comments did. Additionally, I was not the one to remove your comments initially. Relax... vanessawilliams

Sorry for insulting you. Now that you aren't anonymous and I know you aren't a troll I shall find it infinitely hard to insult or mistreat you. God is a woman, you know. :) As I understand it, we should present all view points, and the section I added is certainly one view point. The fact that you wear a relaxer is not a problem. But the fact that some 80% of African American women (that number is probably not correct but I know it's high and I think that's close to the number they give in the color complex) feel the need to modify their naturally beautiful hair to be accepted in this society is disgusting. But that's just my personal opinion. And I would really like your thoughts as to the section in question. Let me end by giving the reasons that I feel this information needs to be included: 1. The article explicitly makes the association between African Americans and "perms" (or relaxers, I say "perm" myself). 2. There is much research that suggests that their is in fact a relationship between racism and African American women's use of relaxers

Are there reasons that the information as presented should not be, given that it's our responsibility to include diverse view points?

Again, sorry for insulting you Vanessa (but you weren't Vanessa then). And also, it would be cool if you could describe your reasons for using relaxers. Please don't use something like "it makes my hair easier to manage" because of the flaws demonstrated (hopefully) in this argument earlier in this talk page. An accpetable answer is "because I want my hair to be long and straight", to which my reply is "why?" to which your reply is "because I like it that way and it's my perogative" to which my reply is "why do so many A.A. women think that way?" to which you answer "b/c we can wear our hair like we want" to which I reply "there is likely a reason for this group choice" ... The other argument you could reasonably put forth is (I think) "because society gives certain advantages to A.A. women with 'relaxed' hair" to which I reply "why?" to which there is no resonable answer other than "racism" ... Any flaws in my logic? I'd love to see them pointed out, really.

I relax my hair, because it gives me more options as far as styling is concerned. My hair is naturally very wavy, which makes it a lot harder for me to do things like wearing it in a straight style, curling it or putting it in an up-do. I feel like relaxing my hair, and starting out with the straightness makes it a lot easier for me to put it up in a neat ponytail without random hairs flying about, and hot curling it, with less effort, or just wearing it down. I also find that when relaxed my hair's true length is revealed, because the roots are straight, and I like the look of it. It's also easier to get a straighter look by relaxing hair, as opposed to just trying to blow-dry into a straighter style. I like to relax my hair because I'm very pleased with the way it looks. I dont feel as though, I personally, am under any pressure by society to have straight hair. I know that I will always black, and the look of my hair wont change that. When people see me, they will always know that I am black, and that's ok with me. People forget that you are who you are. You cant act a color, you can only be a color. No matter how many times I relax my hair, I will always be black. I dont believe that people's actions reflect anything about their color. I cant stand when people use the terms "acting white" or "acting black". Me staightening my hair doesn't mean that I have the desire to suddenly be a white woman; it means I want straight hair. I would also be very foolish to think that straightening my hair would be bring me closer to being white. I dont necessarily agree that women who use relaxers do so to fit into society. Relaxers are just another means of self grooming, like shaving, getting hair cuts, or showering. I think a lot of it just has to do with wanting to look a certain way (not necessarily a way that you feel society is pressuring you to look, but a way that you like for yourslef). I think it's great that people are able to modify their looks in accordance with what they consider attractive, whether it be via a relaxer, make-up or certain clothing. Why do women with straight hair get perms? Because they want to make it curly, not because they are trying to emmulate another race who has predominately curly hair! I dont see why the explanation for why black women choose to relax their hair cant be as simple. No woman I know seems completely satisfied with her hair. Women with straight hair want curly hair. Women with curly hair want straight hair. Women with short hair want long hair. Thankfully, we have means, such as relaxers, perms, hair dyes and scissors to change the way our hair looks, as often as we choose. vanessawilliams

Okay.
What the user Vanessa is forgetting is the other side of the story of us black women and our hair - and that is that parts of our society today DOES still look down upon African hair. I am still looked at funny or treated differently today if I go to my workplace in wearing my hair in an afro, cornrows or french braids. My own black family members ask me when am I going to "get my nappy hair done?" and look at me with wrinkled up noses whenever I go without a relaxer touch-up for a prolonged period of time. I get more admiring attention from men (including black men) when my hair is relaxed than I do when it is not. We black women tend to tell ourselves that we are actually relaxing our hair solely on based on our personal preference and are not influenced by society, but what we must remember is that what we also prefer is to be considered beautiful by others. Whether we conciously acknowledge it or not, slavery, racism and our long/flowing/straighter-haired neighbors HAVE affected our perceptions of what we consider beautiful and what we don't. Tawanna 13:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion there should only be mention of the benefitial action of the relaxer instead of light being shed on who "needs" to use it and who doesnt. My fiance happens to be a cosmetologist and though AA women get relaxers more often than Caucasian women, it isnt entirely absent from their race. Since hair has grown on peoples heads, its been "nappy". If a White Women doesnt comb or treat her hair in 30 days....guess what? It'll be "nappy". I'm not against the use of racial identification but I would rather It be kept to a minimum. The Perm page should be looked at as well. Just my 2 cents.

Bloodfire555 —Preceding comment was added at 19:06, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Racial Terminology

I think the term African-American is being misused and overused in this article. Not every black person is from America, just like not every white person is from Europe. This article sounds very Americacentric, remember this an international encyclopedia. Any thoughts? SynthesiseD 21:52, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, but I don't think I'm qualified to revise this article. -- Craigtalbert 22:33, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I also agree, although I seem to be a bit late here...plenty of African people live in places other than America, a pretty reasonable example being Africa :P and seeing as I have family in Africa, I think it's only valid that the term African-American in this article be removed and replaced with something a little more valid on a global scale.Dragonkillernz 15:21, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia goes with Black people, and I suggest we do the same, or perhaps even "people of African descent" would be better. "African-American" obviously can't be used as most black people are not African-American. It's not a very useful term when it comes to race anyway. Any objections? Martin 16:57, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

i don't know. i suspect that there's a lot of stuff going on with the whole issue of relaxed hair. i'm a white male and can assure that most white folks know very little about the subject. relaxing african hair is MUCH more troublesome than perming straight hair; it's expensive, limiting-since it can't get wet, i believe?-and damaging to the hair. yet MOST black women do process/relax their hair to some degree, many for years. it's hard to conclude other than that-for whatever reason-they think that white women's hair looks better than natural african hair.69.22.85.123 08:35, 14 October 2007 (UTC)randy

i'm not positive, but i *think* the issue of blacks and relaxed hair might be more prevalent in the united states (as compared to in say, ghana or south africa). but i haven't read or searched for any sources that treated the issue internationally. for the record, i don't think it really matters how a person wears their hair. people all over the world do stuff to their bodies - painting this, piercing that, changing what they can - without any logical reasons for doing so. anyway, the reason i specifically used "african americans" was because the source i used was US specific. i'll attempt to find some more information about this. Lloyd.smith 15:03, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Second Section

The second part of this article contains absolutely no references, and merely expresses the thought, written like facts, of an individual. It doesn't belong in this article, which is about hair relaxers, not a history/ethnic fact page! It's also entirely centred around issues in the United States. It also should NOT say anything about it being popular with anyone. This article seems to be written by someone who literally WANTS to include 'racial' issues with a beauty product! Plus there are are many European-descendants who use hair relaxers. This article must be written in a scientific point of view, since it is about a certain hair treatment. It only seems to glorify racism. Also, this 'race' phenomenon is something stuck in your head that purely a misconception. Stop judging people on what 'race' they are! All I know is, any Human that has curly hair would use relaxers if they want to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.49.201.32 (talk) 09:06, 27 December 2007 (UTC)