Talk:Rapping

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Former good article Rapping was one of the good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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[edit] Merge, poll

Hello there. I see no reasons why articles named Rapping and Hip Hop music should not be merged.

Rapping article fails to describe rapping as a vocal techniqe separate from rap music genre. 90% of Rapping article actually desctibe the history of American hip hop.

On the other hand, Hip Hop music article in its current form describes Rap music as well. Why should be have two articles on the same subject? That's my first reason for merging them.

If you believe that both articles may be improved to not mix up things like it happens right now, please read further...

I would probably agree that rapping as a vocal style is used in genres other than rap music. I would name Western African folk music, rap metal, big beat, dancehall, grime music... That's probaly all, but that's enough. However!

1. Rap metal, big beat and grime music are all fusion genres of rap music with rock and dance music. They are all offsprings of US rap music, no more!
2. When talking about West African folk music or dancehall, "rapping" in these genres are almost never refered as such. Instead, terms like "chanting" and "deejaying" are used. Additionaly, they differ a lot from rapping as using in US hip hop.

Actually, pure rapping is only used in rap music and its many sub-genres.

So, I strongly doubt that there's a need for a separate article on rapping as a vocal style. That's my second reason for merging Rapping and Hip Hop music.

If you disagree, please:

1. Re-write Rapping article first so it would describle subject as a vocal style used in different genres (and not mention US hip hop apart from "main article" link).
2. Re-write Hip hop music article so it would not not mention US hip hop apart from "main article" link.

I don't think it's possible. Netrat_msk (talk) 10:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I've forgot to mention Drum & Bass MC's, but I don't think this changes a lot.
I agree -- this is a problem of rewriting not merging. "Rap music" redirects to "hip hop music" and "rap" redirects to "rapping." The best strategy is to use disambiguation tags, like those at the top of rapping. --Junius49 (talk) 22:44, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I've also proposed an alternative merge between hip hop, which is mostly about music, and hip hop music. --Junius49 (talk) 22:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Support

  1. Support as nominator. Netrat_msk (talk) 10:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
  2. Support: Rapping is only syphoning content and effort away from Hip hop musicCosprings (talk) 15:48, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Oppose

  1. Opposed --Junius49 (talk) 22:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
could you elaborate on that please Beeblbrox (talk) 06:13, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
  1. I'm not sure I entirely understand what is being proposed, but I'm pretty sure I oppose it. The act of rapping has plenty of info available to write a complete article, as does the field of hip hop music. Rap music is a vague and confusing term, and should probably be a disambiguation page pointing to both those articles. Tuf-Kat (talk) 22:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
  2. I am very much opposed to merging. From the lead of Hip hop: "Hip hop (also spelled hip-hop or hiphop) is both a cultural movement and a genre of music developed in New York City in the 1970s primarily by African Americans and Latinos.[1]." KRS One put it even better: "Rap is something you do, Hip Hop is something you live." I agree that more rewriting is needed, but the music is just one part of hip hop culture, albeit the part most well known to the general public. Rapping is a vocal technique used in hip hop music, but is only part of what makes a song hip hop. The DJ, the producer, and sometimes other musicians all contribute as well. It is like saying that singing and opera are the same thing. Singing is of course the central element of opera, but there's a lot more going on on the stage and in the orchestra pit. Beeblbrox (talk) 18:30, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Rap music is a vague and confusing term - I'm pretty sure that its quite opposite: the term hip hop music is vague and confusing. See Talk:Hip hop music for details. Netrat_msk (talk) 21:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Rap is something you do, Hip Hop is something you live - This means that rap is a music genre and hip hop is a culture. Netrat_msk (talk) 21:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Rapping is a vocal technique used in hip hop music, but is only part of what makes a song hip hop. - The presence of rapping is what makes a song classifiable as a rap music, even when other instruments are present(but not always as a not hip hop). Coldplay and Queen are classifiend as Piano rock in spite of the fact that piano is not реу only instrument they use. The term rap music is more universally accepted, just check dictionaries. Netrat_msk (talk) 21:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
For the record, it's been my experience that people who actually use "rap" as noun meant to be synonymous with "hip hop", instead of as a verb for one particular thing that a hip hop musician does within the larger context of hip hop as a whole, are almost invariably rock snobs who are using the word with an unspoken — and sometimes dancing on the edge of outright racist — sneer: "Oh, I like all kinds of music except (*snort*) rap." It's not used that way by anybody else. Bearcat (talk) 14:21, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
It is like saying that singing and opera are the same thing. - No, it's the same as saying the opera vocals and opera are the same thing. This is not 100% accurate, but opera vocals are almost never used outside opera genre, so there's no point to have separtate articles on both. Netrat_msk (talk) 21:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
  1. If this article isn't primarily about rapping as a vocal technique, then it should be rewritten that way. Rapping is part of hip hop, obviously, but it's just one part, not the whole thing: it's the vocals. Hip hop has other aspects — instrumentation, production, DJing, visual presentation, etc. — in addition to rapping. And, in fact, a song that's sung, rather than rapped, can still be hip hop if it draws on those other aspects, so there does exist hip hop that isn't "rap". This article should be specifically about the vocal aspect of hip hop, just as singing is a separate article from music. Bearcat (talk) 14:21, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  2. As Tuf-Kat pointed out, the act of rapping has enough information and potential to warrant an article. Rapping is only one part of what makes a hip hop song. On a related note, hip hop culture should be merged into hip hop as it's useless to have two pages on the same thing. Spellcast (talk) 09:24, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
  1. Agree with above arguments. 'Rap' is to 'hiphop' what 'sing' is to 'folk music' (or any other genre in fact, including hiphop). It is possible to rap outside of hiphop music, and it is possible to have hiphop without rap. The two should not be merged, but perhaps the 'rap' article should be rewritten, again, as suggested above. Edtheduck (talk) 18:40, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
  1. I agree with Edtheduck. I also think that the articles, should not be merged, but there should be a section in the article called "Rapping" with one of those things that says "Main article: "Rapping".

Tezkag72 (talk) 18:55, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

  1. "Hip means to know//It's a form of intelligence//To be hip is to be up-date and relevant//Hop is a form of movement//You can't just observe a hop//You got to hop up and do it//Hip and Hop is more than music//Hip is the knowledge//Hop is the movement//Hip and Hop is intelligent movement//Or relevant movement//We selling the music//So write this down on your black books and journals//Hip Hop culture is eternal// Where you at? Come on where you at? This is the difference between MC’ing and rap: Rappers spit rhymes that are mostly illegal, MC’s spit rhymes to uplift they people; Peace, love, unity, and Havin’ fun, these are the lyrics of KRS One." --Brainmachine (talk) 23:52, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
word Beeblbrox (talk) 00:47, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I definitely feel that this article deserves to exist independent of a HipHop article for several reasons. First of all, they are inarguably two different things, just as breakdnacing and hiphop are different, or graffiti and hiphop are different. Yes they are related but hiphop is a culture and rapping is an art form and social practice that is part of hiphop culture. Secondly, this is a good article that sticks closely to the subject and does not - as some seem to think - wander off into unrelated territory. If the hiphop article repeats a lot of this info it is because the hiphop article is not accurate or insightful. Why not just encourage a more comprehensive and useful article on hiphop rather than merging them? thanks.... —Preceding Loboslobos (talk) 19:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)unsigned comment added by Loboslobos (talk • contribs) 19:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

A small opposement. Lethal Bizzle needs to be considered as a notable uk artist —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.212.51.239 (talk) 17:41, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] subject matter

It says that rap mainly comes from large east and west coast metropolitans when the most famous form of rap is from the South--Primetimeking 03:59, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

You are probably just too young to know the actual history of hip-hop. Netrat_msk (talk) 10:34, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Rap is not hip/hop there is a major difference. Hip Hop can but does not have to contain rap. Rap is just vocals whereas hip hop can be any combination of beats, bass, computer generated sounds and vocals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.170.132.252 (talk) 06:41, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

the south at this moment doesnt have many great artists anyway, just popular ones. there's a difference. ignorants enjoy idiotic music. 23:05, 12 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bsilver87 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Redundancy

I just read through (and made some minor corrections to) this page and then took a look at the hip hop and American hip hop articles and couldn't help noticing that they duplicate quite a bit of the same material. It seems to me that this article would be much better if all of the exploration of the history of North American hip hop was moved to the page on North American hip hop and this article was left with only information on rapping itself.

The sections that i would leave in this article are:

History Roots Writing and its subsections - though I'm on the fence about whether the 'subject matter' section should stay or be moved performance and its subsections similar musical traditions notes and references

Everything else in this article is addressed in greater depth elsewhere. The section on identity in particular seems mispaced since it has to do with the culture of hip hop, not the style of rap. As krs-one likes to say, "rap is something we do, hip hop is something we live", in other words one is a culture and the other is a vocal technique. My argument is that we should (you should) put the cultural stuff on the pages where hip hop culture is being discussed and leave the page on rapping to deal with the vocal technique.

just my 2.5 cents

Hip Hop is a cultural lifestyle that incorporate dress, lifestyle, dance and most importantly wisdom. I love rap music, but the content of rap is not the same as hip hop. Rap has a portrayal of "ghetto's" and street life, while hip hop shares wisdom with its audience. While both rap and hip hop introduce ideas that come from the streets, rap encourages this street mentality while hip hop portrays life as it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.18.178.180 (talk • contribs) 07:45, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Rap need adhere to nothing other than the fact the lyrics are delivered through rapping. Rapping need not be about the ghetto, about the discovery of religion in a forty-ounce, about the length of either a penis or a double-barrel shotgun, or about racial mechanics. If I decide to snort a rail, go outside naked in this blazing southern heat, and rap about lemons, then I've just rapped without mentioning the ghetto. 'Hip hop' is a trend, which is the downfall of decent rap and the purgatory of underground rap, most of which sounds alike. But that's neither here nor there. 71.228.195.19 (talk) 20:03, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Please include the BAD side of rap

this artical does not include anything about the bad side of rap the bad side includes

  1. talking in ununderstandable slang
  2. swearing
  3. violence
  4. noise pollution (blasting out of phones (ect.)

I've also noticed that the pages on ROCK and THRASH METAL are not protected does any 1 know why, because we all know which genre was here first, don't we!!??—Preceding unsigned comment added by Albinoblackrabbit (talk • contribs) 15:51, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to add this information as long as you can cite sources. Unreferenced opinions will be removed.
Page protection in article space is usually assigned for individual articles on an as-needed basis. This article was protected for because it was frequently targeted for vandalism from anonymous accounts. / edg ☺ ☭ 19:30, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
Oh, the ignorance is funny. Not to mention the spelling errors in your post. No wonder it's locked, too many people stereotyping the genre based on what they hear on the radio. But anyway, as far as i know there's good and bad in each genre, as well as swearing. Violence only occurs in Gansta rap. Rap in general, is not about "guns, hoes, cars, money" etc. and well, idiots cause noise pollution, and you dont seem any different by failing at putting rap down. 74.12.217.80 (talk) 12:52, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Talking in ununderstandable slang is the worst part about rap and deserves its own encyclopedia article. Because we don't have any information on it right now I propose we use the (now public domain) Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition's article as a foundation. Furthermore, THRASH METAL sucks ass.
Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Your personal opinions are not appropriate topics for encyclopedic articles. Please familiarize yourself with the five pillars. Also "ununderstandable" is not a real word. Beeblbrox (talk) 07:02, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, violence is something that is omnipresent in society today. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.68.1.148 (talk) 00:18, 10 August 2008 (UTC) Violence occurs in nearly any sort of rap. Gangsta rap makes sad mention of specific names and sets while hardcore rap makes its living off ultraviolence. Even carefree emceeing makes frequent mention of violence, as does battle rhyming. Old mafiosi rap had staples of cocaine distribution and cop-murder. Even Jehst, who is to me one of the most creative artists working today in music, has a measure of violent lyrics. 71.228.195.19 (talk) 19:48, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Ignorance makes me laugh as well. If you have factual proof, fine, but dont put in your personal bias stemmed from your lack of knowledge of the genre. Look up Conscious rap if you can manage listening to real thought-provoking music. ignorants enjoy idiotic music. 23:10, 12 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bsilver87 (talk • contribs)

Either way the point is moot as this is an article about rapping, not rap music. Gangster movies also use violence, as do horror flicks. Rap is a form of expression, and a story telling medium, not unlike a movie. What you think the stories are generally about is irrelevant. KDilla (talk) 11:34, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] White Rappers

No mention of 3rd Bass in the white rapper section? They predate most of the white rappers (including Vanilla Ice) listed other then the Beastie Boys —Preceding unsigned comment added by General-E-C-Mo (talk • contribs) 06:14, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if race should be used as a faction of music. There are many, many white rappers working in all manner of rap, from the grime scene to the UK's artistic scene to the trailer trash american south. There are also many rappers of every other race, which is why it makes little sense to bring race into the article at all, though since it's locked, this sentiment's perhaps out of place. 71.228.195.19 (talk) 19:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Race has nothing to do with hip hop, any one regardless of their past, childhood, race, etc can rap.

[edit] http://en.wikipedia.org/description/The_Message_(album)

In the 1980's section of this article, it would seem strange to mention Blondie and leave out Grand Master Flash and the Furious Five, whose singles: "The Message" (1982) and "WhiteLines(Don't Do It)" made a huge impact on rap, dance mucic and popular culture in general. Hallowscorp (talk) 17:57, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

So add it. Carl.bunderson (talk) 22:49, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Canada

"Canadian Hip Hop combines Canadian English with a Caribbean vibe due to the strong Jamaican and Haitian heritage of most Canadian rappers"

What? Please explain to me why this should be the definition of Canadian rap? Two things:

a) Canadian English? What does that mean? Do we say "eh?" at the end of every verse? b) You can say that some, like Kardinal and whoever else you think defines Canadian rap, have a Caribbean vibe if you wish but that's like saying "American rap" all sounds the same because what you see on TV may be very similar. I think someone would hear Buck 65 or Shad and assume they weren't Canadian or wonder where the Caribbean vibe is. KDilla (talk) 11:52, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The article is a mess. It's written mostly by hit & run contributors who add some shit then disappear. I removed large portions of bogus text last month. I just fix whatever problems I spot, although I haven't bothered to really scrutinize the article since I first checked on it last month. A is putting the smack down (talk) 12:02, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

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[edit] Muhammad Ali

I wonder why nobody refers to Muhammad Ali, who I know as the inofficial initializer of Rap/ HipHop. Just enjoy his comments on the Rumble in the Jungle (1974):

„I've done something new for this fight.
I've wrestled with an alligator, I've tussled with a whale,
I did handcuff lightning, and threw thunder in jail. 
I'm bad. 
Last week I've murdered a rock, injured a stone and hospitalized a brick. 
I'm so mean I make medicine sick. 
Last night I cut the light off in my bedroom, hit the switch and was in bed 
before room was dark. I'm so fast man I can run through a hurricane and don't get wet. 
When George Foreman meets me he'll pay his debt. 
I can drown and drink the water and kill a dead tree, 
wait 'til you see Muhammad Ali.“

--Ginness (talk) 00:38, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

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