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[edit] ChouI'm writing a book based on fact about marie.It's long been a misconception that chou means cabbage in "mon petit chou" and other like sayings. However, chou is also a kind of cake often seen at weddings, and when the French use chou as a term of endearment, it's a reference to the cake chou à la crème, not cabbage. This is in regards to my change of the following in the Motherhood section, replacing cabbage with cake: "Speaking of her youngest son, Louis-Charles, she said, "Mon chou d'amour ("My cabbage of love," "cabbage" being a popular term of endearment even into modern times in France), is charming, and I love him madly. He loves me very much too, in his own way, without embarrassment."[cite this quote]" RemiCogan 20:36, 17 August 2007 (UTC) hi —Preceding unsigned comment added by Maya 584 (talk • contribs) 05:44, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Analysis of The Cake Quote?One thing lacking, in this article, is an actual examination of why the dubiously attributed "let them eat cake" was allegedly so inflammatory in the first place. Especially since cake was so common in France. I'm guessing that it was simply that this would have made her seem so clueless about the masses that she didn't realize that not having bread would be any real hardship, but even if that is the reason the quote was offensive, it should be spelled out in the article. If there was any more elaborate reason, it definitely needs to be noted. Kaz 18:24, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Let Them Eat Cake (TV Show)British comedy duo French & Saunders did a television miniseries called "Let Them Eat Cake" about a fictional Baroness living in Versailles. The characterization of Marie Antoinette in this show was of a daft, dippy Austrian puritan who bumbled through her own reign. Something might be said in the "Television" section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.20.173.96 (talk) 03:57, 12 September 2007 (UTC) [edit] Transfer of page.I vote to transfer the Papirini page over here, or have her rewrite in the recentchanges since she made it. And let them Eat Cake is a *MISQUOTE*. Yes, a *huge* misquote. She didn't actually say it, it was another figure. And I do think Pairini's version of the page is still higher quality than the current page cause it has sources. That's far more than this page has. She also fixed some of the complaints that are addressed after she posted the request. Please post for an against. If no comments are made at the end of next Sunday, I'll request she moves it or I'll move it myself.--Hitsuji Kinno 20:05, 20 September 2007 (UTC) [edit] Coppola movie materialA substantial portion of the article appears to be based entirely on the Sofia Coppola movie; I have removed the most egregious portions, but have kept a bit in case someone can come up with sources for that. The rest was simply horribly blatant, and since nobody has managed to source it in over eight months, it's better to keep it out of the article for now. Johnleemk | Talk 22:47, 26 September 2007 (UTC) [edit] Recent major rewriteThe whole article has recently been completely rewritten by Hitsuji Kinno. A job well done on getting rid of the movie material, and providing citations for the article. However, I have a number of concerns; first off, a minor issue: was getting rid of the succession boxes really necessary? I have heard many good arguments for reducing this template overload in the past, but surely this is going overboard? Also, we need to do some work on formatting the lists at the end; the see also section currently leads to red links (maybe someone is planning to create them?). More pertinently, I am concerned that we are blatantly overrelying on Fraser's biography, which as outstanding as it is, is still only one source; we should be drawing on a variety of sources. I note with concern that some sources in the previous revision (a couple of which were added by me) have been excised. As with all major rewrites, we must try to draw on the best of both revisions to make a better article. The present article is a fine piece of work, but it is, in my view, lacking in some aspects that the old article was not. Thoughts? Johnleemk | Talk 04:50, 3 October 2007 (UTC) [edit] Edit neededHi everyone. I just added my first page. It is "La Carmagnole" which is a song made popular during the Revolution that is particularly insulting to Marie Antoinette. I would like to add a link to this page, but would need someone else's help since this page is semi-protected. I was looking in the French Revolution section, around the phrase "The result was a decline in popularity for both the king and queen," and then maybe including "exemplified by a popular song of the time "La Carmagnole," or something to that effect. I'm not too particular about how it has to be done, but I think it would add some useful information to be linked to the La Carmagnole site. Please let me know what you think, and thanks for the help. 592KatieM 21:13, 21 October 2007 (UTC) [edit] neutrality of articleI knew nothing of Marie Antoinette, so decided to come to wiki to read up on her and speaking from an unbiased point of view, after reading the article I must say that the article seems to be unfavourably in favour of her, much of the reading made me feel as if it was trying to defend her at every point. To bring this article up to wikipedia's standards of neutrality it needs to be cleaned up. (Wiki332 13:15, 23 October 2007 (UTC))
I just read the Antonia Fraser book and found it far better than I expected. I thought it was going to be an attempt to paint her as a misunderstood figure and a feminist hero, but it is more balanced than it is given credit for. That said, one of the major points of Marie Antoinette historiography is that she has remained a controversial figure since the 18th century--and the fact that we are still arguing about her says something about why she is important and issues of wealth and class in the US and Europe. By and large, I tend to see her as a figure antagonistic to the rights of common people--but the fact that she continually is part of our contemporary cultural dicussion makes here a very interesting figure. Also, the Legion of Honor in San Francisco has just organized a show about MA--and the book is worth looking at--for anyone who is working on this entry. [Architecture professor] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Architectureprofessor (talk • contribs) 21:43, 9 December 2007 (UTC) Can you give examples of the articles bias (Anonymous) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.23.13.159 (talk) 23:11, 4 July 2008 (UTC) I am willing to do some clean-up, making notes out of some 6 different GOOD biographies of the Queen this (not just those made to read like novel - in fact I have but one written in that manner and that IS the Fraser biopic,) as I also feel such a strong dependance on Fraser gives the feel of too biased an article. Sadly, much of the information is very biased when it comes to this figure, but this is not surprising given the life and death of the Queen, and the rewriting of history during the French Revolution. Am putting some notes down and getting the edits ready as we speak. Its going to take me to the end of July, but hopefully this may quit the neutrality dispute. Probably not. Originalninjacat (talk) 14:48, 23 July 2008 (UTC) [edit] In regards to 'Let them eat cake'I have not read this article in its entirety, but I hope it is clear that Marie Antoinette never actually said "Let them eat cake." That is a quote wrongly associated with her, and this should be made clear if it isn't already. 20:38, 1 November 2007 (UTC) Might I add: Jean-Jacques Rousseau, in his 1783 autobiography Confessions, relates that "a great princess" is said to have advised, with regard to starving peasants, "S’ils n’ont plus de pain, qu’ils mangent de la brioche", commonly translated as "If they have no bread, let them eat cake". This saying is commonly mis-attributed to the ill-fated Queen Marie-Antoinette, wife of Louis XVI; it has been speculated that he was actually referring to Maria Theresa of Spain, the wife of Louis XIV, or various other aristocrats. However, this should not be taken as a slight against the working poor, as was probably misunderstood by Rousseau. The "great princess," who ever she was, was probably referring to the urban poor rather than peasants, since it was in cities that the price of bread was strictly regulated. If the poor had no bread available, than the law that maintained that fancy breads had to be sold at the regulated price, and not the luxury price, should have been enforced. Such laws prevented supplies of food from being diverted from serving the commonweal to the luxury trades. Bakers had to think about how much expensive butter, eggs, and sugar to invest in their production. If they ran short of plain bread (or so the theory went) they would be forced to sell their rich pastries at a loss. It is ironic that the "great princess'" defense of the poor should be twisted to survive as an idiotic, and baffling comment. What is clear is that Marie-Antoinette could not have said "let them eat cake." She was still living in Austria in 1766 when it was first printed, and she was but ten years old.-- Benfidar 19:29, 1 May 2008 (CST) (Early Modern European professor.) [edit] lesbianI don't know anything about this nor if this has been discussed before here. But this:
seems out of place in the lead paragraph, a place for the most important facts about the figure. -- Taku 14:26, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
69.203.10.232 (talk) 02:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC) [edit] The titleThis title of this article is desperate! "Marie Antoinette" is just too simple for a woman who was Queen of France. Why don't you change it to "Marie Antoinette of Austria"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.250.113.199 (talk) 13:37, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Entrails?!!What is this about people "storming the palace" for Marie's entrails?!! Is this vandalism? 65.183.135.166 (talk) 00:39, 29 November 2007 (UTC) No, that's accurate. KingAndrewI (talk) 04:45, 29 November 2007 (UTC) [edit] Wikiproject France AssessmentThis article was listed on WikiProject France under articles needing assessment. This article has been rated B-class because:
Also, please note that I assessed this article as "top" importance for WikiProject France. Marie Antoinette is a widely known name from France (up there w/ Jean D'Arc) and has a significant cultural role. Therefore, this topic deserves to be top importance. Lazulilasher (talk) 17:37, 26 December 2007 (UTC) [edit] Possible Origin of the Cake Quote LegendAt that time, "cakes" made of various grains were a staple food for the peasantry. Grain, because of climate changes, was becoming more and more in short supply, making the "cakes" themselves more difficult/expensive to make and/or buy. The French court had by then discovered that the potato could be grown easily in France and could replace much of the grain as a staple. As a result, realizing the problems coming their way, they attempted to encourage the peasants to eat them, even setting the example themselves. However, the peasantry refused to eat the potato, believing them to be unhealthy and a trick of the ruling class because they grew underground. (Note the opposite - and very successful - reaction of the German peasantry.) Thus, legend has it that, when asked what the peasants should eat and knowing that they would not eat potatoes, she is reputed to have replied, "Let them eat (rye, wheat, etc) cake!" The interpretation being, of course, that she was fed up with peasants who would not take good advice. (The attitude is still much the same, however: a disdain for the common man.)--71.11.230.32 (talk) 01:46, 7 January 2008 (UTC) Oh! Why not stop putting "let them eat cake" in/out of Marie-Antoinette's mouth? That phrase had (supposedly) been uttered by another queen a good 3/4 of a century before MA was born. Besides, taken out of its context, the phrase has been interpreted incorrectly. One should know the various laws that have covered the fabrication of bread in France throughout the centuries, and what was to be done when there was no bread left. Too long to go into details here. However, there is a law in France, a remainder of older laws, that when there is none of the cheapest bread left in a shop, the owner of the shop has to sell the next more expensive bread at the price of the less expensive. Hence - and probably - the origin of the "let them eat cake" phrase. Frania W. (talk) 22:03, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] WritingI have no idea as to the neutrality of the article but it desperately needs to be rewritten with an eye to correcting grammar and word usage. Risssa (talk) 23:42, 10 January 2008 (UTC) [edit] Early YearsThis is a terrible analogy: "Though the queen was criticized for her expenditures, in truth, her spending amounted to little in comparison to the debt incurred by France during the Seven Years' War, still unpaid. It would be further exacerbated by Vergennes' prodding Louis XVI to get involved in Great Britain's war with its North American colonies, due to France's traditional hatred of England.[29]" Why is her personal spending being compared to the cost of an entire war? Wars are usually pretty expensive, so that analogy doesn't really tell us anything except to mislead people into thinking that either wars are inexpensive or that if personal expenditures don't amount to costing more than an entire war then the personal expenditures are not excessive. Both those conclusions are utterly ridiculous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.90.123.141 (talk) 17:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Whether or not the amounts were comparable, surely the point is that the extravagances have been considered to be of the same or greater importance than that of the wars France was fighting or funding? MA was blamed for France's debts. If her expenditure was negligible in comparison with military spending (and therefore irrelevant to France's economic problems) it's important to make the point as it exonerates her from a recurrent criticism.--82.15.53.62 (talk) 12:22, 22 January 2008 (UTC) [edit] Re: NeutralityLooking at the list of references for this article, there appears to be only one, Antonia Fraser's biography. My impression of Ms. Fraser's work is that she's hardly unbiased, and once could easily look at this article as a summary of the book. I have a copy of Carrolly Erickson's To The Scaffold, which in the next few weeks I'd like to use as a sort of counter-reference to see what I can see on this subject. I would urge anyone else who has similar works to do a comparison so that we can have a more level ground from which to view this subject. Tomwhite56 (talk) 21:39, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Featured articlePlease add {{Link FA|bs}} - 89.146.158.20 (talk) 15:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC) [edit] Marie AntoinetteHelp. I'm an registrated user, but I can't change "Marie" in the article to "Marie Antoinette". Please help me soon. --AndreaMimi (talk) 18:14, 22 February 2008 (UTC) [edit] Marie AntoinetteShe has been used in many media productions, such as the movie of her, and also been mentioned in many songs, like for example, the song Marry Me by Emilie Autumn, a gothic industrial beutiful goddess. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnnyHell666 (talk • contribs) 09:48, 24 February 2008 (UTC) I agree with your opinion of Emilie Autumn, however it seems most think the song Marry Me is actually about Catherine Howard, the fifth wife of Henry VIII of England. The only part of this song that could relate to Marie Antoinette would be the chorus. Marie Antoinette would come to love Louis after time and she was given away by her mother. Catherine was executed for cheating as well, only in her case she had in fact committed adultery. She was also the most frivolous of his wives. Another little factoid: One of Henry VIII's favorite meals was peacock. The first sentence is mine, the rest came from [4] There is a lot more on it here link title ShaktiValkyrie (talk) 20:21, 2 September 2008 (UTC) [edit] The "cake" questionTo straighten this thing out, the infamous quote's original wording is actually: "... qu'ils mangent de la brioche!" Brioche is not some fancy cake, but rather a spruced-up version of (sweet) bread (still popular today). The gist of the story, however, remains the same. But I do suggest to simply take a look at the entry for "Brioche", where the purported Marie Antoinette quote is also sufficiently discussed. As for the rather extravagant theory given above, I have absolutely no idea where he/she got that from - Neustrelitz (talk) 00:29, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Might I add: Jean-Jacques Rousseau, in his 1783 autobiography Confessions, relates that "a great princess" is said to have advised, with regard to starving peasants, "S’ils n’ont plus de pain, qu’ils mangent de la brioche", commonly translated as "If they have no bread, let them eat cake". This saying is commonly mis-attributed to the ill-fated Queen Marie-Antoinette, wife of Louis XVI; it has been speculated that he was actually referring to Maria Theresa of Spain, the wife of Louis XIV, or various other aristocrats. However, this should not be taken as a slight against the working poor, as was probably misunderstood by Rousseau. The "great princess," who ever she was, was probably referring to the urban poor rather than peasants, since it was in cities that the price of bread was strictly regulated. If the poor had no bread available, than the law that maintained that fancy breads had to be sold at the regulated price, and not the luxury price, should have been enforced. Such laws prevented supplies of food from being diverted from serving the commonweal to the luxury trades. Bakers had to think about how much expensive butter, eggs, and sugar to invest in their production. If they ran short of plain bread (or so the theory went) they would be forced to sell their rich pastries at a loss. It is ironic that the "great princess'" defense of the poor should be twisted to survive as an idiotic, and baffling comment. What is clear is that Marie-Antoinette could not have said "let them eat cake." She was still living in Austria in 1766 when it was first printed, and she was but ten years old.-- Benfidar 19:29, 1 May 2008 (CST) (Early Modern European professor.)
[edit] BAIS?I would think not. Those of you wishing to know more of the negative aspects of the Queen are out of luck. Marie Antoinette was a scapegoat for the French citizens, a way to blame the ineffective government set in place centuries before her own ascendancy. In reality she held little if any political power hence her position "the Queen Consort" of France. If anyone is to blame it is Louis XIV and his great-grandson Louis XV because both rulers knowledgeably allowed the economy to slip into a recession. Most if not all historians can agree that Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette inherited their problems and by this time it was too late. Please understand that the Queen had no role in the daily affairs of government, and far from being the frivolous woman of the court she preferred not to live in Versailles, rather she enjoyed the simple pleasures of life and the company of her close friends, THIS was her mistake. France was ever suspicious of the "Austrian woman" and could only imagine what she was doing in the Petite Trianon. I will not make any excuses for the deficit of France, it was no one's fault but the monarchy and aristocracy, but to blame one woman for the ills or France is illogical. If anyone helped to expand the deficit of the monarchy it was the ineffective ministers of court and the people themselves. First and foremost positions at court granted usually by favor, when Louis inherited the throne he was surrounded by a bunch of dolts more appropriately the kings "favourites". Louis was hardly trained for the position of king, because his father and brother were both in line for the crown before him, and when they died no one had ever even imagined that Louis-Auguste would become the next roi de France, however the king was still the father of all Frenchman and it was much easier for the people of France to blame the ills of society on an Austrian than their own king. Marie Antoinette was known to spend out of her allotted royal budget; however we must compare her spending habits to those of previous Queen's of France in retrospect Maria Leszczyńska spent more on diamonds in a decade than Marie Antoinette spent on her entire reign of eighteen years. In comparison to most of the noblesse of her time period she was quite radical in her ideals. Appropriate to the age of enlightenment both Louis and Antoinette had a strong sense of the suffering that their people faced. Louis abolished torture and unlike his predecessor Louis XIV when the woman marched on Versailles Louis could have had them all executed for high treason, but that was out of character. Marie Antoinette as the mother of the children of France focused most of her attention to their education. Even from a very early age she made certain to provide her children with a sense of urgency to protect the people before themselves. Marie Antoinette is a style icon. She was fashionable and loved the exuberant life that the Salons and Parisian parties had to offer, but is that enough to place her at fault? Critics point out that if she was so worried about her people then why not lose the diamonds? She was the Queen of France the most cultured and learned country in Europe, and her position as queen served as an example of the splendor of France. Her duty was to present France at its best. She was criticized for overindulgence, but then during the Trianon years she lost the corsets and diamonds in favor of light cotton gowns then she was accused of degrading the sanctity of her position. One thing is certain she was destined to die, but what is important is how we remember her. Even if Louis and Antoinette radically altered their behavior France and the modern era were set for a grand upheaval, like her position had dictated she would serve as an example for those who would follow her. My Opinion I love her. She was everything that the philosophes and enlightenment thinkers hated and loved about society. Her nature was to please, and she enjoyed the glamour of the age, but at heart Versailles was just too much. If one could recreate her library you would find every influential enlightenment thinker spanning from Voltaire to Rousseau, which she read quite often. Rousseau's work "The Social Contract" opens with the gripping maxim "Man is born free but everywhere he is in chains". Marie Antoinette refused to allow tradition to dictate her life. If anything Marie Antoinette represents the manifestation of the enlightened woman, even the revolutionaries would be hard pressed to find any real evidence supporting their claims of treason against the Queen. Like any prominent figure in the pageant of history she will forever remain susceptible to speculation and criticism, but it is a one sided debate she nor anyone else needs to continue to support her innocence, it is proven by her actions and through the slanders and accusations placed before her she never once lost her composure reflecting not a Queen but the woman that she had become. DaintyLittleMorsel (talk) 02:32, 20 March 2008 (UTC)DaintyLittleMorsel [edit] Polonaise?
I studied XVIIIth French fashion and I can say that this information is wrong. A robe à la Polonaise didn't have paniers. In fact a Polonaise is: A dress very less wide, with rigid corset but with a gown simpler, short to the ankle, without paniers or other structures, but overtopped by a outergown curled at the rear. This curl is obtained pulling little inner rope, like a theatre-curtain. This is a Robe à la Polonaise:http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/h2/h2_1976.146a,b_1970.87.jpg in this paint Marie Antoinette wears a normal dress of court, very wide with panniers like an other (more famous) paint: 
http://www.cg14.fr/chateau_benouville/xhtml/mode.asp?numero=47 Frania W. (talk) 23:03, 9 April 2008 (UTC) [edit] Summary of Antonia Fraser's bookToo many anecdotes in this (encyclopedic?) article, which is based solely, it seems, on Antonia Fraser's book. Frania W. (talk) 21:14, 9 April 2008 (UTC) I agree, from looking at the citations it seems like it:s just a retelling of that one book. However is anyone actually going to go and bother to find other sources, re-source parts of the article, re-write parts of the article? Heh, good luck —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.111.192.130 (talk) 03:04, 22 April 2008 (UTC) [edit] Marie Antoinette-typoIt should be "hoarding" bread, not "hording". Could you please someone correct this, I am new at Wiki and don't want to edit the text proper. Thank you! 21:30, 24 April 2008 (UTC) BlueSkies999 Done. Stacymckenna (talk) 03:11, 29 April 2008 (UTC) [edit] 'Personality' section neededI was just look for particular points in relation to Marie Antoinette's personality, etc. and I was impressed with the article but I think that it could be improved with the addition of a dedicated 'Personality' section, similar to that in Louis XVI. I know that there is relevant personality info in the article, it's just that it would take a lot of work to find it. I'd do it, but I do not know nearly enough about Marie Antoinette to do it. Thanks, Daniel99091 (talk) 05:10, 25 April 2008 (UTC).
[edit] Marie Antoinette'sI just added:
As noted in the edit comment, I was the creator of the website LibraryThing, although I have not been very involved in this particular project, which was instigated by a member. I am aware that links of this sort are frowned upon, although not strictly forbidden. I am going to be posting over there, in the "I See Dead People['s Books]" group (http://www.librarything.com/groups/iseedeadpeoplesbooks) about the lack of links from Wikipedia articles to LibraryThing's many legacy libraries. It is my contention that someone's books are a very interesting window into their life. This is, of course, why scholars have compiled printed catalogs of famous people's libraries for centuries, so it is not a new thing. Putting collections online allows easier access and some features—such as an easy way to compare the libraries of Marie Antonette and others. (See http://www.librarything.com/profile/MarieAntoinette/stats/legacy). I think links to LibraryThing—and to others, if others emerge—are a good idea, and defensible within the context of a Wikipedia article. I'd be interested to know what the latent community around Marie Antoinette thinks of this idea, and of the link. Needless to say, I put the link up, but I am not going to defend it against removal. Lectiodifficilior (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 19:29, 16 May 2008 (UTC) [edit] her sisters and brothersSnabela93 (talk) 15:18, 28 May 2008 (UTC) it says that she was the 15. child but on her mothers "site" it says she was the 16. child [edit] BlimeyI've never seen such a biased article on Wikipedia. Mark J (talk) 16:56, 2 June 2008 (UTC) Is that all you posted to say? When there are several other sections about this? If you think it's biased stop complaining or do something about it. If you are unwilling, then don't waste everyone's time. Ayashe (talk) 09:00, 5 June 2008 (UTC) [edit] ReferencesIt's clear, especially from the tag now, that this article is currently sourced almost exclusively by Antonia Fraser's book. For anyone who wants to improve the article by getting additional sources, these books may help in doing so. Cliff smith (talk) 01:57, 17 June 2008 (UTC) [edit] Cake ClarificationI'm reading a lot of the posts about the cake comment, and most are missing why "let them eat cake," even though she didn't say it, was so offensive to the french people. Within the context that it was purported, "cake" or "brioche" was not referring to a chocolate birthday cake or even common bread - there was already a bread shortage. "Brioche" in context was referring rather to the black, chalky residue left behind in the ovens AFTER baking. So nonchalantly telling a bread-deprived public to "eat cake" (remembering what actual "cake" was being suggested) would have been incredibly offensive and ignorant. ~ Vibi4Rilla —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vibi4Rilla (talk • contribs) 13:47, 4 July 2008 (UTC) [edit] DisputeWhat's the nature of the dispute over this article? And, regarding the last posting, if she did not say "Let them eat cake", (and she didn't), why does it matter what it meant? Spoonkymonkey (talk) 23:53, 29 August 2008 (UTC) 24.144.93.98 (talk) 03:18, 22 October 2008 (UTC)Because she has been stigmatized with saying the line "let them eat cake" believed to insinuate that she didn't care about the people of France when in fact she cared very deeply about the people. It matters to the point of setting the record straight (as it were) that she wasn't the unthoughtful monster she has been made out to be. [edit] mixed date formatsPlease note that I've made them consistently international. Please buzz me if this is against consensus. Tony (talk) 12:16, 2 September 2008 (UTC) [edit] mixed date formatsPlease note that I've made them consistently US. Please buzz me if this is against consensus. Tony (talk) 12:16, 2 September 2008 (UTC) [edit] hey about the cakewhat are you talking about?!?! of course she said "let them eat cake"! duh! if she didn't then who did? im just saying that why are you making such a big deal over the cake issue? it's insane! she said let them eat cake! its in school books and history books! Guest (talk) 12:16, 22 September 2008 (UTC) I don't know if this saying is correct or not, but if it is and you are saying it is in books, give us a citation of a credible source so we can verify it. If saying something is so, made it so, I would announce myself king. and maybe if I had time declare the end of world hunger disease and such. Have to give the people something so they don't realize I took all their stuff :-) Abernaki (talk) 02:00, 4 October 2008 (UTC) [edit] Axel von FersenIsn't it amusing somehow, that her alleged sexual relationship with Fersen is always denied by everyone who sympathise with her? Everyone who likes her, say it is terrible slander, as if it would be wrong for a woman in an arranged marriage to have a lover. It is just natural. For her own happiness sake, I hope she did have lovers. In those days, it was considered wrong, but now, we should be more modern about this. I do hope they would do a DNA test on her son someday. I know they have, but if there is possible to do one who shows the fatherhood, I hope they will do one. If it is possible, I wonder why the havent? Are they affraid for what it will show? It doesnt have to proove anything, of course: even if they had sex, they didn't have to have children toghether, so her son could be the son of the king anywhay. But if he prooves to be the son of Fersen, then perhaps historians could aknowledge the fact that it is just natural and human to have a lover in an arranged marriage, and that it doesnt make her a bad person. It simply seems to me, that historians make the alleged affair to slander, because they believe this would make her to a bad person. Not so strange, perhaps, because the debate started in a time when the moral values had this view. If they are prooved to be lovers by such a test, then perhaps this old view of the subject will change to a more modern one. Just an observation! --85.226.41.61 (talk) 14:37, 14 November 2008 (UTC) Página espejo de la WikipediaDirectorio de Enlaces Directorio dmoz Directorio espejo dmoz Pedro Bernardo | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
