Talk:List of island countries

/Borderless Countries Talk Archive1

/Archive 1

[edit] Greenland, Channel Islands (Jersey and Guersey), Falkland Islands, and many others

Should Greenland, Channel Islands (Jersey and Guersey), Falkland Islands, US Virgin Islands, British Virgin Islands, Guam, American Samoa, etc. be added to List_of_island_nations#Autonomous_or_semi-autonomous, or to (a) new category(ies)? --18:18, December 9, 2004, UTC

[edit] "Shares one or more of its islands with another state"

Seems like for Brunei, Domican Republic, Haiti, etc., it's not quite right to call "its island(s)". The major parts of these countries do not occupy the entire island.--18:30, December 9, 2004, UTC

[edit] Bordered borderless island countries?

Now we can see from the introduction and the definition of an island country that they do not have land borders. Yet I see a few entries which clearly have them:

• Brunei
• Cyprus (disputable)
• Dominican Republic
• East Timor
• Haiti
• Indonesia
• Macau
• Papua New Guinea
• United Kingdom

At the same time, I notice the exclusion of Saint Martin and the Netherlands Antilles who shares the island of Saint Martin. Surely all of these should be removed since they fail to meet the basic critieria of a true island nation?--Huaiwei 10:25, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I think there should be a separate sublist for the above nations. Sqwerty 21:09, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Under what category then? "Half island nations"?--Huaiwei 01:41, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps "Shared island nations?" Sqwerty 19:30, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Why aren't United Kingdom and Indonesia island countries? There are many sources on the Internet referring them as island countries or island nations. The governments consider themselves as such. Indonesia also calls itself the largest archipelagic state. Sharing a land border with another country or not is another concept not related to their natural geography as islands. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.218.218.109 (talk) 18:37, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I quite agree. I came to this page via a link and it has at the top "Redirected from Borderless countries", so it was clearly called that at some point. This would be a much more sensible title still, especially as this page suggests one also sees the 'Island country' article. This would solve all the problems - the U.K. would be a non-borderless island nation and Australia would be a borderless non-island nation. (It makes no sense to say that a continent can be an island - they are just landmasses of different sizes. And it also makes no sense to give as evidence that Australia is an island that that is what Australian schoolchildren are taught and what the Australian government states on websites. Politicians are not in charge of geography.) Salopian (talk) 16:45, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I think this is now almost the same topic as Contradiction below, so I'll post my response there. Certes (talk) 21:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Yep, I agree, and just came up here to check that I didn't need to reply to anything else. Let's move the whole discussion there from this point. Salopian (talk) 10:33, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

You can clearly see up there that Brunei, Papua New Guinea, East Timor, and Indonesia are listed up there. The island Borneo is partly Indonesian (mostly, actually), but there is also a Malaysian part and Brunei is there as well. Meaning they all have land borders (Indonesia with Malaysia and Brunei with Malaysia). And the island New Guinea is divided into the Indonesian province of Papua and West Papua and the country Papua New Guinea. And this also applies to the the island of Timor, where half of the island is an independent country, East Timor, and the other half is the Indonesian province of West Timor. Oh, and of course, the United Kingdom has a border with Ireland. Maybe this solves the problem? chika (talk) 00:50, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Macau

I'm removing Macau from the list. Unlike HK, the peninsula portion has been part of the territory since the establishment of the portuguese colony. YES the peninsula is attached to the Chinese mainland. Unless HK is considered an island country, macau shouldn't be either. --Kvasir (talk) 16:03, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough: there's no qualitative difference under the current inclusion criteria. However, I think Macau and not Hong Kong would qualify under the "50% on islands" proposal above. Certes (talk) 19:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

From where is the "50% on islands" criterion sourced from?--Huaiwei (talk) 11:28, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I was referring to Salopian's suggestion above. I have seen no sources for it, and I think it's intended as a possible guideline rather than verifiable content. I did not mean to imply that "50% on islands" was an accepted criterion at WP or elsewhere. Certes (talk) 21:29, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. As I noted above, any criteria without supporting sources simply cannot be adopted in a wikipedia article, especially when it is related to a definition which remains unsourced.--Huaiwei (talk) 21:35, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

The Macau peninsula is located on an island separated from the continent by some distributaries of the Pearl River. Such islands are common among river deltas which rivers have many mouths. Compare with those islands within the Ganges Delta. 12:03, 16 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.218.45.68 (talk)

Ah. Kindly name the "island" from which the Macau peninsula extends from then?--Huaiwei (talk) 17:29, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

This part of the discussion has been removed a few times, which I think is a little extreme. The IP certainly has something of a case, as the area composing the eastern parts of Zhongshan and Zhuhai is surrounded by water, but just like Huaiwei, I have never heard that area being called an island. I guess it all comes down to whether all water-surrounded landmasses in a delta should count as islands or not, and I think (without having examined the matter further, mind you) that this is an example of "not". (Living in a delta myself, I'm confused by these matters on a daily basis.) -- Jao (talk) 22:42, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

The IP editor is a banned user (User:Instantnood) who was banned partly for these endless games of pedantic semantics. Responding to him will result in twisting the question a different way, which you will answer in the same way, and etc. WP:RBI. Macau is partially on a peninsula on an island that is part of another Chinese province. It doesn't belong here under any circumstance. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

I'm not sure I'm following. If that area is an island, then Macau is entirely located on islands, thus an island country (for at least one definition of the term). It still wouldn't be a borderless country, of course. I had missed the fact that the IP was a banned user, though; feel free to remove the discussion again for that reason, if that is proper procedure. -- Jao (talk) 23:16, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Macau could be said to lack land borders if its boundary is all underwater, albeit shallow river water. But we must stop somewhere before the Kiel canal makes Denmark an island country. (Revert this comment with the rest if it smells like troll food.) Certes (talk) 02:03, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Macau SAR has a land border with Guandong province. That border is on a shared island, a fairly large one in the Pearl River Delta. Macau has a tenuous grasp on the term "country" and is not an island. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Yep I agree according to the "borderless" definition, Macau is not borderless. Yet have people here ever agreed that island countries must be borderless? Are Indonesia and the Netherlands Antilles island countries? 22:44, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the land border is 340m long (from CIA world fact book, link could be found following Macau's own page) It could only get longer if they have filled in the little ditch/river/marsh west of the land border that separates the peninsula from the Mainland. This undated google satellite image shows the land border structures and you can see at one spot along the waterish feacture they have started to fill it in. --Kvasir (talk) 22:17, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Canals won't make the Iberian Peninsula and southwestern France, or Jutland and northern Germany islands. However some of the outcomes of artificial waterways are considered artificial islands. The district of Dithmarschen and Donauinsel are such examples. But then the island where Macau peninsula is located is not an artifical island. The waterways around it are natural ones, and may perhaps be wider than the waterways of the Klarälven around Hammarö. 22:44, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Who is Instantnood? Why you keep undoing my edits? 22:47, 18 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.218.45.68 (talk)

Well if every kind of water feature counts, I would be living on an island in an archepalago too, since there is a drain around my apartment block, as is in the case in thousands of blocks around mine! That this "island" has no name already says alot on its relevance as an established geographic feature. I noticed some maps actually not depicting the said area as being completely enclosed by water features. This suggests that the purported "island" is not a well established geographic feature. Compare this with that of the Chongming Island in the Yangtze River Delta, where established delta islands are actually named.--Huaiwei (talk) 16:20, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

It's amusing to learn how archipelagoes can be created. But in that case, in your country fields enclosed by ditches are artificial islets too. 22:44, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

It is an island as long as Manhattan is an island. Burgerist (talk) 20:58, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

That's because Harlem "River" is a tidal strait. --Kvasir (talk) 17:17, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Isn't it a distributary of Hudson River too? Lower streches of almost all rivers and distributaries are probably somewhat tidal. This is especially true for those with big deltas. Burgerist (talk) 13:01, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Harlem River is labelled as a tidal strait because of the flow reversal nature over its entire length. The point is we have no evidence of this unnamed Xijiang distributary exhibits tidal behaviour for its entire length. There also appears to be distributaries branched off from this main water channel. According to google map [1] the water body streches (for at least 50km)from the Pearl River estuary to Xijiang and bisects Zhongshan appears to be the one that forms and "island". When finding the name of this water body that transverse the city, I have some references that says the city sits on "Zhongshan Island", aka "Macau Island". There are only 16 google results on "Zhongshan Island", none of which looks authoritative. Whether those sources can be accepted as reliable is another story. --Kvasir (talk) 15:08, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Chinese wikipedia on Zhongshan (which is currently a Featured Article) reveals a better description on the geography of Zhongshan for those who can read Chinese: [2] It says Zhongshan was indeed situated on an island 5000 years ago, until sedimentation from Xijiang and Beijiang have reached the island and turn the sea around it into a flood plain. This Zhongshan government webpage also gives a good description of the hydrology (三、水文) in the prefecture-level city. The terminology used there are 水道 (channel), 河 (river) and 溪 (creek). Too bad I have yet found a map saying which one is which. It'll take more time to interpret from the descriptions which water body is the one we are interested in. --Kvasir (talk) 16:52, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Are Jiya Shuidao and Xiaolan Shuidao artificial waterways or remnants of the filled up sea? [3] Burgerist (talk) 19:18, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Great map! Shuidao (水道) literally means "channel", which doesn't indicate whether it is an artificial or a natural fluvial waterways. The major waterways that "could" render a "Zhongshan Island" seems to be 小欖水道 (Xiaolan Shuidao) or 石岐河/水道 (Shiqi Shuidao), and 雞鴉水道 (Jiya Shuidao). According to Google map, Shiqi Shuidao is hydrologically connected to Jiya Shuidao right through the Zhongshan urban area. The next step would be to find references on these waterways and determine their type. The following text are from the Zhongshan government site concerning the hydrology within the municipality:

雞鴉水道 北接容桂水道，兩岸北起經東風、阜沙鎮；東岸北起經南頭鎮、馬新聯圍和民三聯圍，在大南尾與小欖水道匯流，注入橫門水道出海，全長33公里，面寬200至300米。該水道渲泄西江洪流，兩岸成為中山市的防洪地區。Jiya Shuidao: Starts north from 容桂 Shuidao at the banks of 東風 (Dongfeng) and 阜沙 (Fusha) towns. Also with 南頭 (Nantou), 馬新聯圍 and 民三聯圍 on the east bank. Confluence with 小欖水道(Xiaolan Shuidao) at 大南尾, draining out to sea at 橫門水道 (Hengmen Shuidao). Length of 33km, width of 200-300m. That channel drains flow of Xijiang, its two banks form a flood protection area of Zhongshan.

小欖水道 北接順德市馬寧水道，于鶯哥咀注入市境內。兩岸途經小欖、坦背、港口鎮；東風東岸途經東鳳、阜沙鎮，在大南尾與雞鴉水道匯流注入橫門水道出海。全長31公里，面寬150至300米。該水道渲泄上游西江洪水，河道兩岸成為市境主要的防洪地區。Xiaolan Shuidao: Starts north Shunde's 馬寧 Shuidao, enter the city at 鶯哥咀. Passing the banks of 小欖 (Xiaolan)、坦背、港口鎮, (Gangkou); on the east banks are 東風 (Dongfeng) and 阜沙 (Fusha) towns. Confluence with Jiya Shuidao at 大南尾, draining out to sea at 橫門水道 (Hengmen Shuidao). Length of 31km, width of 150-300m. That channel drains flow of Xijiang, its two banks forms an important flood protection area of Zhongshan.

石岐河 橫穿市境中部，往東北經郊區、張家邊區出東河口水閘，注入橫門水道；西往南經環城區和板芙鎮，至西河口水閘，出螺洲門，全長46公里，面寬80至200米。Shiqi he/shuidao: transverses the centre of the municipality, flows northeast through rural area, Zhangjiabian and drains into 橫門水道 (Hengmen Shuidao) through the east floodgate (東河口水閘). Flows southwest through 環城區 and 板芙 (Banfu) towards the west floodgate (西河口水閘) and exit at 螺洲門. Length of 46km, width of 80-200m. --Kvasir (talk) 19:45, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

With floodgates constructed at both ends of Shiqi he/shuidao, it would be safe to say that the flow in this waterway is controlled, whether it is a natural or artificial channel. There is still not enough info to say if these channels make the Zhongshan area an island (thus Macau sitting at the southern tip of that island) following the "tidal strait" argument. The next step would be to find references to these channels of their tidal behaviour IF we are to accept tidal strait as a criteria. --Kvasir (talk) 20:35, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

You are assuming that islands have to be named, or else they are not islands. First of all, this is not true. Second, the island where the Macau Peninsula is located does have a name. 22:44, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

The peninsula is not connected to the continent, but an island in a river delta. And in fact the peninsula was itself an island until the tombolo to its north became an isthmus. 22:44, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Note for Kvasir, I'm going to leave the link to the map for you but I am going to remove comments from Burgerist as commentary by a banned user, Instantnood. Sorry if it interrupts the conversation flow, but denying disruptive trolls a part of any conversation is part of the banning policy to discourage their disruption and return. You may like this as well, zh:中山市. And fwiw, Macau is not an island. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Oops, didn't know that's one of his sock puppets. Anyway, this research seems to have gone further than what seems to be philosophical debate so far. Link 3 up there was referenced to zh:中山市. I wasn't saying Macau is an island just that the handfull sources among the 16 mention this "Zhongshan Island" is also called "Macau Island". Through this discussion with "Burgerist", and important concept of "tidal strait" was raised in the case of Manhattan. This could be used as a criteria to determine whether an estuary island is a true island. Just something to consider. --Kvasir (talk) 20:17, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

To recap of what information we have:

• There is no doubt that Macau has a natural land border with China (at least 340m), hence not an island or archipelago by itself.
• There is no doubt that Macau peninsula sits on a landmass that is completely surrounded by water: Pearl River Estuary to the east, Xijiang to the west, South China Sea to the south, and a number of tributaries to the north, namely Jiya Shuidao (雞鴉水道), Xiaolan Shuidao (小欖水道) and Shiqi Shuidao (石岐河/水道).
• By strict definition of "landmass surrounded by water", this landmass would be an island
• Needs concensus on whether it is meaningful to define what an island is in an estuary geography as water channels get displaced from periodic floods.
• There are currently very few references (16) of this landmass as "Zhongshan Island", which is also known as "Macau Island" according to those sources.
• No information on whether any of the three channels are in fact tidal straits, which, if they are, would provide an argument for a "Zhongshan Island". --Kvasir (talk) 21:01, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] This article is misleading

The first paragraph states that an island country and a borderless country are the same. They are not. For example: the United Kingdom is an island country, as it is wholly confined to the British Isles (Great Britain, Ireland, etc..). However, it is not borderless, as it shares a land border with the Republic of Ireland through Northern Ireland.

On the other hand, Australia is not an island country, as it is considered to be a continent. And yet it is borderless as it occupies the whole continent, and only the continent.

thanks, 86.158.41.125 (talk) 15:16, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree (except for "and only the continent", which I don't understand), but then I'm not a native English speaker, so if "island country" is indeed commonly used as a synonym for "borderless country" there's a chance I just wouldn't have heard it. I started a discussion about this in February, but nothing really came from it. -- Jao (talk) 15:58, 1 September 2008 (UTC)