Talk:Johann Gottlieb Fichte

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[edit] Old Content

Fichte picked up the problem of Dualism where Kant left it and sought to solve some of the epistemological and ethical concerns of the objective knowledge and the subjective reason. Fichte strove to find the certain, common ground. He argued that by not solving this problem, Kant left it open to skepticism. Fichte saw this as too materialistic, so he attempted to eliminate Kant's dualism, and, in doing so, articulated a nationalism that posited the national community as an ethical community.

Fichte's 1794, Theory of Knowledge, dealt with the problem of the dualism of subject (or freedom) and object (or determinism). He concluded that neither was grounded enough to be confident. His solution was classic idealism. Fichte approached the identity of subject and object by positing that we must think of ourselves from within in order to see that there is no dualism. He said that we must further posit an absolute ego, a creative nature, the world as subject, a conscious totality, a self-creating world with no duality. But, we cannot prove the absolute ego, so it must be posited as a regulative ideal, not a proven existing thing. Furthermore, we have an ethical duty to posit this ego, because we can only be moral by being rational and free. But, to be free, we must be a part of an absolute freedom. We must also act as if God exists, even though we cannot know, nor demonstrate this. We emulate this ideal by action, an ethical duty, that transforms the world and ourselves until we become more like the absolute ego (or God). In doing so, we see that subject and object are not isolated, but are identical. We also discover that in changing the world, we change ourselves, because we only really know the world when we act upon it and changeunion of theory and action was called "praxis"; Hegel would draw upon this ideal.

Fichte develops nationalism in Vocation of Man (1800). In this political philosophy that is a defense of the ethical community of wills, Fichte presents an ethical imperative to work for a community and against chaos. It is a compulsion to act that is a compulsion towards betterment. Each individual has a duty to will an ethical community, a universal cosmopolitan culture. This universal community based on freedom is the goal of human freedom. Fichte posits the intermediate community is the nation-state, a limited community of wills, which is no less ethical and one in which our ethical duty towards national unification is an imperative.

Fichte's Kantian view of a unified Germany is nationalism with an undertone. Fichte sees Napoleon's unification of France as "imposed" unification and, thus, opposed the French as imperialistic. He defends German nationalism and the Germans as the original people, or Ur Volk. He sees the Germans as a privileged and chosen people that must fight to prevent their corruption. He further sees the state as an ethical realization of the German people that guarantees liberty and individuality and is the embodiment of the collective will. He believed that the individual has an ethical duty to immerse himself in the state.

Fichte's nationalism is passionate; thus it does not give itself too much to philosophy. It also became a sort of secular religion for him.

Also, I think a number of claims here need to be made substantially clearer. For example, "He picked up the problem of Dualism? where Kant? left it and sought to solve some of the epistemological? and ethical? concerns of the [objective knowledge]? and the [subjective reason]?." So, where did Kant "leave" the problem of dualism, and just what does it mean to say Fichte "picked it up" there? Also, just what are the "epistemological? and ethical? concerns of the [objective knowledge]? and the [subjective reason]"? I can't tell, but I sure would like to know! --LMS

ACK! Larry, must you make me go back and do research I've already done?  :-7 Don't have my notes with me now (at work). I've got most of the warrants for my arguments written down somewhere's, but this was the short version of my write-up on Fichte. I entered it because I couldn't find my elongated version complete with quotes from both Kant and Fichte. Also, I doubt my Philosophy Prof was too concerned about my accuracy (disstressing). Thanks for the critique! --Invictus

I agree with Larry, the above could be clarified and made useful, but it needs a bit of massaging. In the mean time, I've replaced the article with a much shorter, but hopefully slightly more clear, description of Fichte's importance to German idealism. MRC

[edit] Schopenhauer

I would be interested to know more about Schopenhauer's description of a second, absolute consciousness. It may come as a surprise that I cannot find mention of such an activity in any of Schopenhauer's writings. Lestrade 15:39, 5 October 2005 (UTC)Lestrade

That mention could mean Schopenhauer's 'will' considered as a universal force rather than a direct relation to an individual ego. Nagelfar 21:27, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

In the third paragraph, under the category "Life and Work", the page gives a misleading representation of Fichte's influence on Schopenhauer. Schopenhauer called Fichte the father of "sham philosophy" in Book II, chapter I of "The World as Will and Representation." Aside from such rhetorical attacks, it is also clear that they differ philosophically in that Schopenhauer acknowledged the noumenon while Fichte did not. For Sch., "The Will" is the noumenon, a.k.a. the thing-in-itself.

So when it says, "In fact, Fichte achieved fame for originating the argument that consciousness is not grounded in anything outside of itself. This notion eventually became the defining characteristic of German Idealism and thus an essential underpinning to understanding the philosophies of Hegel, and of Arthur Schopenhauer . . . " This was not an essential underpinning of Sch.'s philosophy. --68.35.182.188 01:42, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Self-consciousness

I added a section about Fichte's theory of self-consciousness being a social phenomonon. It was a little hard to sum up without going into a lot of detail so it might be a little too hazy or vague.

[edit] To add

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~shaked/Holocaust/lectures/lec4.html German nationalism burdened with a romantic quixotic aspect was founded by Johann Gottlieb Fichte. in 1807 -romantic nationalism; proclaimed German ethos to be the seedbed for human perfection; argued against Jewish emancipation. 1808: delivered series of ‘Addresses to the German Nation,’ rallied German-speaking people to resist French, & spoke of the superiority of the Germans. Anti-intellectual, anti-democratic sentiment woven into German fabric; destructive chauvinism http://www.ajr.org.uk/pastjournal52.htm Fichte, a fervent democrat, excluded Jews from equality. http://members.surfbest.net/shsaltzman/Dawidowicz.html Called the father of German nationalism, Fichte has also been called the father of modern German anti_Semitism. His celebration of German nationalism was matched by his denigration of Jews. In 1793 he had argued against Jewish emancipation, characterizing the Jews as a state within a state that would undermine the German nation. Jewish ideas were as obnoxious as French ideas. The only way in which he could concede giving rights to Jews, he said, would be "to cut off all their heads in one night, and to set new ones on their shoulders, which should contain not a single Jewish idea." --Molobo 10:33, 22 May 2006 (UTC) Also a quote regarding his desire to comitt ethnic cleansing is here: [1] --Molobo 10:37, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Molobo is an expert on anti-isms, especially its practical appliance, as shown in his contribs to Wikipedia. --Matthead 22:09, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm more than half done with Addresses to the German Nation now. Calling it "destructive chauvinism" probably understates the case. No human beings on Earth are capable of original thought, except the German, says Fichte. Chauvinism is definitely the word for it. German is too complicated for non-Germans too learn. Non-Germans might _think_ they've thought of something, but it will never have any impact (like a slyph sleeping on the grass, he says). I sympathize with him, a little bit, he was overrun by Napoleon and wanted to rouse the Germans to get out from under the Corsican-led French. But to basically call everyone else sub-human... well, the fact that it was re-issued in 1922 makes me think that calling him a proto-Nazi isn't out of order. JoshNarins (talk) 14:13, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Obscure Reasons

The section "Life and work" claims that Fichte published his first work anonymously for obscure reasons. This seems naïve to me. It is obvious that Fichte mimicked Kant's style and hoped to deceptively sell the book to people who thought that they would be reading Kant. The book would not have had many sales if published with an unknown author's name.Lestrade 15:18, 26 October 2006 (UTC)Lestrade

I changed the section. I'm not perfectly clear on all of the details of Fichte's life, but the claim that Kant rejecting Fichte's request for a loan caused a feud does not seem to appear in any of the secondary literature. The Intro to the Attempt (and the Intro to the EPW) claims that Fichte sent the manuscript to Kant in order to pursue Kant's acquaintance after a first interview went poorly. He copied Kant's style, partially to exhibit his mastery of Kant's terminology, and partly to suck up. Kant enjoyed and approved of the work and began speaking to him. Fichte did ask for a loan, and Kant did not give him any money, but he told him to publish the Attempt, hooked him up with his publisher, and when the censors and publisher negotiations went slowly, Kant got Fichte a job as a tutor. Relations did break down later, but I sort of thought that was during the Atheism Controversy.

Anyway, the previous content was a feasible enough reconstruction of what happened, but I've never heard any published source make those claims.Hansonfan 04:10, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

In the introduction to Breazeale's 1988 "Fichte: Early Philosophical Works" (pp. 8-9), it is clear that no one really knows why it was published without Fichte's name. The most likely explanation, says Breazeale, is that the Publisher *wanted* the confusion about authorship, in order to sell more books. After all, many people (including professional reviewers) did take it for another work of Kant's. Whether it was a ploy to sell more books or not, the result was that a lot of books were sold. JoshNarins (talk) 14:17, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

It is not logical to say that the publisher omitted Fichte's name because he wanted the public to think that the book was written by Kant. The reason that it is not logical is that Kant was a known author who had written many books. As such, he would never have published an anonymous book or a book that didn't have his name listed as the author. A book without an author's name would never have been thought to be a book by Kant.Lestrade (talk) 15:37, 16 July 2008 (UTC)Lestrade

As I understand it, the reason for having a book on religion published anonymously would be the repressive climate for religious writing in Germany at that time. That, plus Fichte's intentionally Kantian style, plus the general expectation that Kant would produce another book to resolve problems within the Critical Philosophy (which the Attempt, well, attempted), all contributed to the widespread conviction that Kant had written the book. Besides, anonymous publishing was a common practice at the time, even by well-known authors.

Whether or not a publisher would be sufficiently wily to predict all of this, and unscrupulous enough to cash in on it, is certainly debatable. But we--including, to all appearances, Fichte and Kant--have no idea what actually happened. Hansonfan (talk) 22:31, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Of course, we weren't there at the time. Also, we can't read minds. All we have are probabilities and logic. We can only ask ourselves, "Would a famous professor like Kant publish an anonymous book?" It seems that the best attitude toward this topic is scepticism. Therefore, we can't make definite assertions and claims that the publisher most likely wanted the confusion in order to sell books.Lestrade (talk) 17:24, 21 July 2008 (UTC)Lestrade

Oh, I absolutely agree. But what's written in the article are the published citable speculations, which respond more to the question "Would Kant have published a book anonymously to avoid getting dragged in front of Frederick II and his advisors?" And the answer is, "Most of Germany thought he would." Which isn't entirely unreasonable, since the strictures on theologians had become more and more strict, at least one of his colleagues had been forced to openly recant his work (J.G. Hasse), and the authorities had identified Kant as someone they needed to shut down (Woltersdorf tried to prevent him from writing further).

Kant usually went ahead and published under his own name by claiming that his works were philosophical rather than theological, but the credulity of the educated German public indicates that no one would have blamed him for holding back (plus his Religion withn the Boundaries of Mere Reason wouldn't have been published for another year, so no one really knew what he would do with a book primarily about theological topics). These conditions are described in the Intro to the Cambridge Edition's Religion and Rational Theology. Hansonfan (talk) 19:16, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] anti semitism

I took the liberty to correct the sentence: "In regards to Jews getting 'rights' he wrote.." to include a more complete quote ("civil rights"). In fact Fichte wrote: "Human rights they must have, though they they don't concede those to us; because they are humans and their injustice does not give us the right to become like them... But to give them civil rights I see no means but to cut off all their heads in one night, and to set new ones on their shoulders, which should contain not a single Jewish idea"

To the above poster: please sign your statements. In any event, someone has obviously reverted your correction, it seems that the facts don't matter. I added a citation tag to the statement that Fichte had a "deep impact" on the Neo-Nazi movement. It seems obvious that there is no link, other than Fichte's cultural anti-semitism (Neo-Nazi as in post-WWII? Why not Nazi? etc.), but I know better than to wade into these waters. To try to argue that anti-semitic doesn't automatically equate with Nazism (Fichte had been dead for a century) never gets very far on Wikipedia. 24.60.23.200 (talk) 15:59, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

As I wrote above in the discussion, it wasn't Fichte's anti-semitism, it was his hyper-Germanism. Fichte has bad words for non-Protestants, and non-Lutherans, and, well, everyone else on Earth except the German. It was republished in 1922, but I do not know how many issues were sold, nor to whom. JoshNarins (talk) 14:19, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Regarding Fichte's comments on the Jewish people, it would be more accurate to at least provide specific, concrete references to his works and writings (and even the context if possible). Hence, I will try to track down where the original comments come from in Fichte's writings. Dydimus (talk) 09:44, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I think it's interesting that Fichte's actual philosophy has been substantially edited out of the article on him, with the author actually saying that Fichte's writings aren't understandable. But there's a section on anti-semitism. Yay! Folks don't have the time to actually read and understand what he wrote but you do have the time to label him a hardcore anti-semite. In "The Romantic Imperative"by Frederick C. Beiser, it's revealed that Fichte was in fact one of the staunchest supporters of the French Revolution during the late 18th and early 19th century and only came around to ultra-nationalism later in life. But Beiser is a German, so who can trust him? Anti-semitism the whole way!!!! Balabanikov (talk) 02:04, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Psychologism

Professional philosophers detest psychology with a visceral, burning contempt and hatred. Why isn't Fichte disparaged by them? Next to Berkeley, his philosophy is the utmost in subjectivity and idealism.Lestrade (talk) 23:54, 17 July 2008 (UTC)Lestrade