Talk:Indian English

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This article uses Indian English dialect and spelling. Some terms that are used in it differ from, or are not used in, American English and European English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

[edit] Source of the anomalies

Does anyone have any information on where the "anomalies" in Indian English grammars listed (the use of the progressive in static verbs, for example) came from? Did they develop somewhat arbitrarily simply as language drift, or do they mirror grammatical forms in other (non-English) Indian language and were imported from there into English? --Delirium 20:41, May 23, 2004 (UTC)

Grammar Structure in Hindi differs from English. It's kinda like French. For instance, when I was learning French, I would formulate a sentence in English(since English is my strongest language), and then convert it to French (or vice-versa). This often had disastrous effects. Take the phrase Je Vous Remercie, which literally translates as I You Thank. If "I You Thank" is not considered French English, I don't see why similar structural mistakes are included in Indian English. More often than not, these "anomalies" are actually just bad English spoken by non-native speakers of the language. I hypothesize mostly from personal experience, but I intend to get some professional views on this phenomenon soon.--LuciferBlack 05:06, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)

Usages are accepted in a dialect if enough people communicate with them and accept them. If there were a community of people who were used to saying "I you thank," that would be considered part of the dialect. If we're accepting that Indian English is a dialect that has grown separately from British English and American English, then there are going to be anomalies in grammar. Thirdreel 13:53, 16 Aug 2004 ()

[edit] Unique Phrases in Indian English

I'd just note that "godown", listed as an example of a word "unique to Indian English", is used to describe apparently the same structures (river- or dock-side warehouse) in Singapore and Singaporean English. So, to be pedantic, it probably shouldn't be included here, or at least not described as unique to Indian English.

Of course both the godowns themselves and and the name were undoubtedly imported into Singapore during the Raj, but nevertheless they're clearly not uniquely Indian. For all I know, the term may have been commonplace in various Malayan englishes, or further afield.

Does anyone know the name of the academy that guides the development of Indian English? It has escaped me. --63.231.226.163 04:56, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

There are other words on this list that are not unique to Indian English (and may not even have originated there)...for example glass means tumbler in British english (I think, at least it does in Australia), and specs is slang for eyeglass (spectacles) in Australia. It seems to be quite common for a particular group to think that their usage is unique when it is not. --GPoss 11:54, Aug 28, 2004 (UTC)

Rrjanbiah, would you please explain the expressions that you added on Aug 26th? If possible, I'd like to know your sources for "Hello, What do you want?" and "Q: How do you do? A: I'm fine. Thank you". I've never heard of the former being used politely, and my Oxford isn't being very cooperative in the latter case. --LuciferBlack 21:36, Aug 28, 2004 (UTC)

I must say that these expressions are not readily encountered. Most Indians, whether or not their English is good, say "Namaste"/"Namaskar", "Salaam aleikum" or "Hi"/"Hey"/"Hello"/"How are you?". Often they'll use expressions from Hindi like "haal kya hai?" or Bengali "ki khobor?" and then lapse into English. It sounds like these Rrjanbiah additions are more geared to a specific community as opposed to a pan-Indian circle. --LordSuryaofShropshire 21:50, Aug 28, 2004 (UTC)

By judging your remark, I understand you don't know anything about India. Ever did a phone call to some Hospitals or offices?? --Rrjanbiah 04:36, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"Hello, What do you want?" is an expression used by a few in hospitals amd offices. But it IS considered RUDE. So I am removing the rude part. Never heard any one use Panipat or Kurukshetra while conversingin English either. -- Anon.

LuciferBlack, 1. It is common expression in India especially at hospitals, offices (in phone or in reception). I came to know, the expression is rude for native speakers from the seminar of Prof. Nedumaran, one of the good communication experts. 2. [1]. BTW, are you a native speaker (I guess, you're not)? If so, what is your English (BrE, CaE,..)? --Rrjanbiah 04:40, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Rrjanbiah: Your pseudo-decisive comments about what I do and do not know ring of arrogance. I'm quite familiar with India, having lived there and interacting with Indians on a daily basis. Regardless, I have removed this:

* Q: How do you do? A: I'm fine. Thank you (Without knowing the real expression "How do you do?". "How do you do?" is a formal greetings and the correct reply is just to repeat ";How do you do?")

First of all, even in America or the UK, "How do you do?" or "How are you doing?" is adequately answered by "Fine, thanks." or some variation thereof. In this case, either reply is 'correct,' and in fact the supposedly 'wrong' answer is them most common one outside of India.

As for the second one, which I've left, I'm still not sure that's an example of 'Indian English' or simply 'bad English.' But whatever. By the way, try to be less willfully contentious Rrjanbiah. You constantly assume that the moment someone disagrees with you he/she is a hyper-fundamentalist patriot psycho who hates, specifically, you. In reality, most of us, certainly I, just want to edit and work on a clean, neutral and factual article. --LordSuryaofShropshire 15:33, Aug 30, 2004 (UTC)

Just another example of typical LordSuryaofShropshire-ism... You always criticize others but trying to project you're the one who knows everything. Regarding "How do you do?", I couldn't understand how native speakers will reply wrong; and I hope some native speaker will comment on that. --Rrjanbiah 04:33, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

FYI, Rrjanbiah, I came of age in Bombay (yes, I still call it Bombay), and currently reside in Canada. So I *have* had sufficient exposure to Indian, British and Canadian English. Ow, I hate being nice while nursing a hangover. Just go read what Shropshire said. --LuciferBlack 20:37, Aug 30, 2004 (UTC)

LuciferBlack, the major problem with NRIs is that they don't understand/try to understand what others say; and they think they're the one who knows everything. --Rrjanbiah 04:36, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Rrjanbiah, the major problem with Indians currently living in India is that they don't understand/try to understand what others say; they think that they're the ones who know everything. Criticisms of bias and ego run both ways buddy.--LordSuryaofShropshire 17:32, Aug 31, 2004 (UTC)

Shropshire, you steal the retorts from my mouth :) --LuciferBlack 13:18, Sep 1, 2004 (UTC)

I'm an Indian, and I cringe at Rrjanbiah's English ("Ever did a phone call to ... ", "you always criticize others but trying to project ... ", "NRIs ... they're the one ..."). --Mallika

[edit] Include canonical phrases / words

WRT the back and forth edits between LSofS and Rj, I have a suggestion to make. Why don't you just include canonical phrases/ words that have been used in advertisements, other media, etc.,?

I disagree with LSofS on the one letter difference- in fact saloon is a very interesting word and is not similar to the colour/ color conventions or other conventions such as s/z or c/s that are standardised in many words. I was not aware of the salon/ saloon connection - maybe there is an interesting etymology to it too, it is worthy enough to be included! In daily life in India, at least in Tamilnadu, in every small town and maybe even in village, a saloon refers to a "barber shop" frequented only by "gents"(that's another Indianism) KRS 18:17, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well, unfortunately, Rj misinformed regarding saloon as referring to salon. If it means what you're talking about, then it has a well-established Euro-American precident in "saloon," a congregatory hall, frequently for men, in which drinks and such would be served (see cowbow westerns). Also, "gents" is not an Indianism, in the sense that it was not coined by Indians. It's a known contraction all over the world. --LordSuryaofShropshire 18:40, Aug 31, 2004 (UTC)

Salon is not only misspelt in Tamil Nadu, it is also misspelt in Kerala and Bangalore (I have witnessed that). Only very few women salon, correctly spelt that. A google search suggests [2], the word is misspelt even in Jaipur, Mumbai and many other places in India. --Rrjanbiah 11:37, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It's not misspelt, we've already determined this. It is referring to the Euro-American saloon. Look up a dictionary.--LordSuryaofShropshire 16:17, Sep 1, 2004 (UTC)

Saloon http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn2.0?stage=1&word=saloon 1. barroom, bar, saloon, ginmill, taproom -- (a room or establishment where alcoholic drinks are served over a counter; "he drowned his sorrows in whiskey at the bar") 2. public house, pub, saloon, pothouse, gin mill, taphouse -- (tavern consisting of a building with a bar and public rooms; often provides light meals)

Salon http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn2.0?stage=1&word=salon 1. salon -- (gallery where works of art can be displayed) 2. salon, beauty salon, beauty parlor, beauty parlour, beauty shop -- (a shop where hairdressers and beauticians work) 3. salon -- (elegant sitting room where guests are received)

In Indian English, Saloon means beauty salon (Salon) [3]

--Rrjanbiah 05:15, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I agree with you Rrjanbiah, I also wanted to cite references- saloon in the Western context has no relation to saloon in the Indian context, the Indian context saloon has to be the Western context salon KRS 06:28, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I think, the right place to discuss about this issue is a.e.u. I have some doubts in English especially "How do you do?" and "Saloon"; I'll post there sometimes later (as I'm bit busy now) and will update here. --Rrjanbiah 07:59, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Indian English Vs. Hindi

"Someone" has added so many Hindi words like yaar, etc and suggesting that they're Indian English. In fact, it is *not*. When someone couldn't find any words in English, they used to mix their native tongue. yaar is used just a fashion in informal context by few Hindi speakers (rarely others). Every native speakers have their own mixing gesture; for example, in Tamil someone may talk like "Ok da", "Tell me da", etc. And these words cannot be a Indian English; but there might be some generic term to refer these. --Rrjanbiah 04:29, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I fully support you on that (only moral support, no editorial support as I don't have the time:-))! KRS 06:31, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for your support and acknowledgement:) Please look at my previous reply. --Rrjanbiah 08:00, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I disagree. There are many non-Hindi speakers who use the word 'yaar' so commonly in English that it has become a part of Indian English. I do understand that occasional usages of words from Indian languages in English doesn't qualify, but this has become part of the popular lexicon. If you want to add Tamil words, that's fine. But there is definitely a definable set of characteristics of Indian English. If even 50% of Indians speaking English use the word 'yaar', or 'matlab', or 'keh', in their ENglish regularly, then it seems reasonable to add it in as a part of INdian English. As I said, feel free to add Tamil words used frequently by Tamilians when speaking fluent English. --LordSuryaofShropshire 15:01, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)

I think we need to differentiate between formal usage, colloquialisms (such as yaar) and downright slang (such as deadly, funda and fundu which are college slang.) Shameer 05:23, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"Your obident servant" is now considered outdated in Indian official communication (dho 03:37, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC))

In addition to "yaar", there are several other words listed for which it is questionable whether they are examples of Indian English, or instead Hindi words that are used commonly by people who speak both Hindi and Indian English. Masaalah is not an English word, it is an Indian word. In addition, why is this listing even here? There is another page for English words of Indian Origin. They belong on that page, if at all. That page has been updated and some of the words given in this list are no longer on the list of English words of Indian origin. I have removed the offending words in both instances pending a reason they should be returned. Tritium6 16:27, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"yaar" is actually a punjabi word. It means "friend". It is not Hindi. Anyone who lives in India would know that it is not English, not even "Indian English".

"yaar" is a word that exists in both Hindi and Punjabi. It is originally a Farsi (Persian) loan word. It is a fairly legitimate Hindi word. I agree with Shameer, we need to differentiate...

yaar , na etc. are hinglish , na is southindian, minglish & hinglish word.

• I have also added the word "chal" under this topic, as a word that is so frequently used when bringing an end to a conversation. Although it is "Hinglish", it is used almost as frequently as "yaar" and hence merits a place here, IMHO Prahladv 00:28, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Incorrect use

I can see a common thread in the discussion about which word should be considered to be included in "Indian English". Well, I have certain reservations. For example, I feel uncomfortable to consider "yaar" as adopted in English. Use of a particluar word like "yaar" by 50% does not justify. In fact, it should be categorized as an incorrect English. And later on when foreigners start using it, it will be a valid candidate to be considered as an English word of Indian origin.

The category of incorrect English (contributed by Indians) would include Primus a brand name of a stove used as if it is equivalent to stove. If you ask Indians above 40, they would be knowing that in India (and in particular in western part) people did not know the word stove. Instead they use the word primus only. Now with the new generation and wide-spread use of LPG, the word primus is not used as the carosene stove is not used. Let me also add that just like this Xerox is a brandname of a photocopying machine derived from the name of the company. But now throughout the globe to xerox is used as a verb interchangeably with to photocopy. So, it should be and is accepted as an English word.

Dinesh Karia --Karia 18:46, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] The article is inaccurate

This article lists:

1. Common mistakes commited by Indians with incomplete knowledge of English, which any English teacher in India would frown upon
2. English slang used in India and
3. Mostly just claims about which, being an Indian myself, I've never heard - neither in real life nor on TV.

The list of "anamolies" would mostly fall into the first category and everything else would fall into the second category.

A more appropriate title for this article would be "Common mistakes and slangs in Indian English" (no, I'm not suggesting that the title should be changed). A *real* article about Indian English would be very short and point out that it is almost entirely similar to British English except for some small differences most of which arise out of some "old" rules still existing in Indian English.

I agree. Most of the "Indian English" in this article are merely common mistakes commited by indians. --Robin 18:39, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

I'd say that depends - are they, for example, also used by native indian speakers of English ? If so, they cease to be 'mistakes' and become 'regionalisms'. And Slang is an important part of any regional English.

Yes it depends. On their prevalence. In this case, many of the slang usages listed, such as 'fundu', 'deadly', 'sexy' are unique to IIT campuses ( and arguably other colleges ). I'm pretty sure the person who added those words to this page is from an IIT, and is maybe under the misconception that the whole of India speaks as they do. These words/phrases are hardly representative of Indian english, in fact most english speakers in India would be confused by these words.

I agree: The section on colloquial usage is almost certainly written by someone from IIT. I can attest to it as an IITM allumnus that they make perfect sense within those environs, but do not exist in everyday English in India-indeed, as has been pointed out, it would confuse, rather than communicate. This section makes a strong case for deletion.

Here we run into the difference between standard and nonstandard dialects. Standard Indian English probably closely resembles Standard British English (as most standard English dialects do, compared to regional variants). However, when a group of people reliably speak in certain unique patterns, and can communicate effectively amongst their own that way, that's a dialect that deserves to be studied. Those patterns may deviate from the standard dialects (even the local standard dialect), but non-standard does not mean "wrong" or "unworthy of note." That's a POV stance that linguists do not accept. I support making clear, possibly with separate subsections, what is considered standard Indian English, and what is considered nonstandard (with further notes regarding regional and subculture variation, i.e. northern vs. southern, differences by language of origin, college slang), but none of this should be deleted or even labeled "incorrect", any more than Urdu or Punjabi should be derided as "incorrect" Hindi. If it's how some people really, consistently speak, then it's "correct" enough to be included. --Skoosh 15:43, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Brand Names, etc.

What about a word such as "eversilver" which is frequently (almost exclusively, actually) used in South India (especially Tamil Nadu), to refer to stainless steel? To the best of my knowledge, that was the name of the company that first introduced stainless steel to India / South India. In that case, it fits into the "xerox" and "primus" category, I guess. Could someone please enlighten me as to the origin of that term.

AFAIK, when the Salem Steel Plant was set up, its stainless steel products were sold under the brand name of 'Eversilver', and that's where the name came from. In my opinion, it is valid to list this under Indian English. -Jbritto

Indian-isms should be phrases such as, "your good name" and "your obedient servant", which are so prevalent in govt. offices, etc., that they are not "incorrect" but uniquely Indian.

[edit] College Slang is not Indian English

From the article, I could find several words that are not commonly used by Indians, but are actually slang used by college students. They do not represent Indian English, but rather the demography of the editors of this particular article.

Note to editors: However often you may have used a word, think about its prevelance among all English speakers in India before adding it here. In my opinion -ji, maybe even yaar count as Indian English, but fundu or cheating-giri certainly don't. -Jbritto

Agreed. --Anon

[edit] Strange stuff

Very good article. However, I've never even heard much of the stuff that is being passed off as Indian English. Whoever heard of "He met his panipat."??? A lot of the words, phrases, idioms, etc are just examples of local language words being used when speaking in English. These are also examples of English being spoken incorrectly by people, as well as colloquailisms and college slang. Ze hawk 04:48, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. Panipat and Kurukshetra are not correct. -- Anon.

"He met his panipat."??? / panipat is an indian place with history , panipat refers to complete destroyed i.e to lose in a competition or fail in a project etc. it can pass of as an good english sentence.

[edit] Inflated Numbers?

Hard to believe that 11% of Indians speak English as a first language and that the overall percentage of Indians that know English is 30-40% (when India's literacy rate itself is about half). I will remove the second part for now. Could we have a reference if it is to come back? Cribananda 07:12, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

No Indian literacy rate is 66% (2001 census) and they DO have 110 million speakers.86.16.175.223 18:06, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

This is the most reliable soucrce as far as I could gather (Britannica) and the percentage comes to around 3-4%. This was of course, in 1995, but I doubt if the numbers would have changed much. http://alt-usage-english.org/Distribution_English_speakers.shtml

-Cribananda 07:17, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

It probably has changed a fair bit. :) Gizza^{Chat ©} 08:00, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I've been researching this for the List of countries by English speaking population article. Here's what I've found: the proportion of Indians bilingual in English was reported here as 8.00%. The number answering the question on languages spoken was 838,583,988 [4], so some 67,100,000 were bilingual in English. The number of Indians with English as a mother tongue is 178,598 (see first link), but so far I can't find a figure for how many of them are monolingual. (This would let us calculate the total number of English speakers in India, although it would not be much more than the bilingual figure.) These numbers all come from the 1991 Census of India, which excluded Jammu and Kashmir. -- Avenue 01:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Avenue, the percentage you quote is higher than the one on my link, nevertheless, it is still way lesser than the 10-20% quoted initially on the page. It is very difficult to determine how many speakers of English there are in a country like India simply because it is difficult to define the level of expertise required to call someone an English speaker. Depending on the definition, I can totally see how your numbers and mine can both be correct, but 10-20% does seem stretching it too far. I have no objections to the article reading "4-10%" -Cribananda 02:05, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree completely that the numbers depend very much on the definition used. However I think the precise number doesn't make a great deal of difference to the sense of the article, and it would be good to have numbers for which we can cite sources. How about "8% of Indians speak English, according to the 1991 Census of India, although other estimates range as high as 15%"? I've taken 15% from the 150 million English speakers mentioned in the Demographics_of_India article, but this could be replaced by the highest figure we can find a reliable source for. -- Avenue 02:39, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

This Guardian article by David Crystal mentions a 1997 survey showing one third of Indians speak English. -- Avenue 02:53, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

There's definitely a wide variation in the estimates :-) The Demographics_of_India article does not cite a source, but is still in the vicinity. The India Today article mentioned in Crystal's piece looks sort of dubious to me, but if I can see the source I'll shut up.

I have no objection to "8% of Indians speak English, according to the 1991 Census of India, although other estimates range as high as 15%". -Cribananda 03:39, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I've replaced the existing statement on English speakers with the version above. Regarding India Today's survey, it looks like they have been misquoted. Their results were actually that, while between 31% and 34% of Indians said they could read, write or understand English, only 19% of Indians said they could speak English. I can't find much information about the survey methodology, except that it was based on a sample of 12,651 respondents. But I'm still tempted to change the statement to read "... as high as 19%". -- Avenue 08:42, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Looks good the way it is. That survey...well, I don't know. More people can read and write English than can speak it? What is that supposed to mean? May be they know how to write their names in the English alphabet! -Cribananda 08:53, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Personally I am much more capable at reading and writing my second and third languages than I am at conversing in them, so that part of it doesn't seem odd to me. -- Avenue 12:10, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Go to Mumbai/Banglore and you will be surprised to find the percentage of people using English as their first langauge.--Darrendeng 06:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Commonly Misspelled Words

I have added few words.

[edit] Commonly mispronounced Words

Not sure if this belongs in this article but my wife (bengali speaker) drives me nuts with her consistant mispronounciation of a range of words such as "risk" ("ricks"), "disc" ("diks"), "film" ("filim"), and "birthday" ("birtday")

Cheers,

Anit

Anit- That is not an Indianism. Did your wife go to Catholic School? The pronunciations you have listed are a signature of the Indian Catholic/Convent Schools. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.160.130.16 (talk) 22:04, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Does this article conform to the NPOV?

Most Indians don't know that English is a stress-timed language, and word stress is an important feature of English pronunciation.

Wouldn't it be more NPOV if this (and some other) feature(s) of Indian English would be described more neutrally, eg. "While most English dialects are stress-timed, Indian dialects of English are often syllable-timed". The whole tone of this article is too "prescriptivist", writing about these dialects as if they were "inferior" compared to English English just because it's strange for the Britons' ears. --Adolar von Csobánka (Talk)

I agree about that specific quote being POV. Your suggested wording would be a big improvement. Can you give other examples of places the article is too "prescriptivist"? -- Avenue 12:02, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Note that many Indian English speakers don't even know that their pronunciation scheme is actually incorrect as compared to RP /different would be a better word; while it must be emphasized that it's considered nonstandard, it should not be suggested that RP is "better"/).

And I could cite all other sentences which label the vernacular varieties "incorrect". Spelling pronunciations are borderline cases but even those examples are quite possibly POV. --Adolar von Csobánka (Talk) 16:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

At the same time, this form of English is not considered "correct" even in India. Officially, British English is still considered the only "correct" form. So, for instance, Note that many Indian English speakers don't even know that their pronunciation scheme is actually incorrect as compared to RP /different would be a better word. But any Indian who does appreciate the difference, considers the Indian version "wrong" and not just "nonstandard" or "different". I think this should be taken into account. --HellFire 13:14, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

These varieties may be considered incorrect (or "wrong") by some, but this is simply irrelevant from a (descriptivist) linguistic point of view. That it has no official recognition (and that it is not a prestigious variety) is already implied by the word "nonstandard", and – as minor differences in pronunciation and lexis do not affect (harm) their speakers ability to communicate effectively (at least w/ those who speak the same variety) – there is no need to label them "incorrect" or "wrong". --Adolar von Csobánka (Talk) 15:34, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that there is a POV slant to this article. It should not list mistakes in Indian English. It should be unique characteristics of Indian English. It is not a mistake it is just different. Mattisgoo 22:38, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I've made a few quick changes to the article to remove some of what I considered to be POV comments. Unfortunately, I think the article still needs a lot of rewording and inline citations to avoid having the feeling of hearsay or opinion -- especially in the first few sections. Good luck to all who try. Mattisgoo 23:18, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with your comment. This should be taken care of, since as it is, many parts of this article (especially in the detailed list of differences) give the impression of Indian English being deficient. Godd examples for a more careful use are e.g.: Creole_language or English-based_creole_languages Atoll 09:36, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Confusing Indian English with Indian vernacular colloquiallisms/slang

This article has become very long and unwieldy, and I find many of the examples added recently don't quite belong here. Let me explain:

1. I think this article lists many usage samples that really have little to do with Indian English, being simply examples of colloquial usage that is not English at all. Some of these are:

theek hai, oof, oh-fo, waah, yaar, macha, ki, maane

While these are certainly commonly heard in Hinglish etc, since the words are not English at all, but Hindi/Tamil/Bengali, this usage can hardly be called Indian English.

2. I would also like to make a distinction between modern youth slang and "true" Indian English. Some of the former are:

deadly, sexy, fundas

"True" Indian English, IMHO, is not slang that youth use among themselves with the full awareness that they are using non-standard English. Rather, it is the at times quirky, at times old-fashioned, and at times plain ungrammatical English that Indians often use WITH COMPLETE UNAWARENESS that they are using forms which might appear peculiar to the modern day American or Brit. It is these latter forms of usage that are interesting to study, often demonstrating the influence of vernacular languages, the influence of formal, old-fashioned manners, and the gentle euphemism that often characterizes Indian culture itself, or other systematic reasons behind their usage. Examples of "true" Indian English are:

"What is your good name?"; "How many issues you are having?"; "My all friends are like this only".

I therefore propose that this article be pruned to reflect the above stricter, narrower interpretation of what constitutes Indian English, rather than be a laundry list of every Hindi interjection and youth slang term that has come into Hinglish and the speech of very informal urban youth. Sticking to the narrow interpretation makes for a more readable article and preserves the features of interest that unite a lot of "true" Indian English.

Please discuss, and if you agree, let us come to some consensus to prune the article as necessary. Thanks!

--Splitpeasoup 03:29, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I think I agree. Actually, yaar, etc., is worth its own article. Maybe we can move that stuff to Hinglish? Acsenray 21:22, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Excellent idea. --Splitpeasoup 21:45, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I second this Doctor Bruno 02:00, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I agreeSticknstones 15:00, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Influence of Scottish English on Rhoticity in Indian English?

This article makes the claim that the rhoticity and trilling of Indian English are influenced by Scottish English. Does anyone have any more information on this? I find it somewhat dubious, and would imagine the trilled 'r' of Indian English arises out of the phonology of the indigenous languages, but I have long wondered about the fact that Indian English retains rhoticity and how this could have come to be (presumably, Indian English developed out of the English of the mostly non-rhotic British colonialists; how was rhoticity rediscovered? From the orthography? That would be odd, but clearly something odd happened...). -Chinju 11:11, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

You are absolutely correct. I cant agree more.--Darrendeng 06:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Confusion between Indian english and hinglish

Contibutors and editors on this page have a big confusion between indian english and hinglish. I was in india for two years doing my research on Indian english. Indian english is British english that follows grammar of wren and martin not so common in UK these days. Whatever vernacular words and syntaxes added on the page as examples of Indian English here is actually hinglish (a combination of english and hindi and other vernacular languages) and it should be part of seperate page. My professor in India in New Delhi had very strict demarkation between two and i never saw his students mixing english with hinglish. I strongly request to clean up this page.--Sticksnstones 17:23, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

• I totally agree with you. Lets take up the task of cleaning this article of the stuff that does not belong to this page. apurv1980 10:36, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Even better, please get rid of all the stuff that is not referenced, per WP:V. Grover cleveland (talk) 19:28, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edited the page

I have modified the page removing all the stuff which is not taught by any english teacher in any school in India. Slangs spoken by college kids are not part of Indian english but hinglish and should be part of that page. If anyone has any objections to my editing, lets have a debate over it. apurv1980 14:48, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with the removal of the bulk of the material, especially under the heading of "anomalous usage." These elements have nothing to do with "Hinglish" (which is the mixture of Hindi and English -- these terms are almost all purely English, only differing in particular from other dialects or varieties of English) and are not limited to "college kids" slang. That it is not taught in school is irrelevant. Much of the nature of a dialect or variety of a language has nothing to do with what is taught, but rather the actual use in a society. The elements removed by Apurv1980, in my view, are sufficiently widespread in Indian business correspondence and among the educated elite of Indian society (who are most likely to use Indian English in their day-to-day lives) as to be relevant to the descriptions and delineations of Indian English. For now, I am re-inserting the information. I welcome others' comments on the matter. Acsenray 22:57, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Differences in the English Language Throughout Asia

Cell phone or handphone? SMS or text? I've posted a brief intro about the differences in terms used for every day things in Asia in my blog at www.ux.com.sg. I would like to expand on the list and to do that I will need contributions from as many people as possible. Please do help me out by sharing your valuable insights. Thank you :)

[edit] Request Indian English assistance

Greetings,

I am a published author working on my second novel. There is a brief scene featuring a character speaking English with an Indian accent. I have been using the wikipedia entry on "Indian English" to help me write this section phonetically and idiomatically, but i'm sure I am making numerous naive and inaccurate representations. Would the author of that entry or anyone else on this board be willing to take a look at the short section and provide feedback? It's about 6 sentences long.

Thank you for your time. You can reach me at juxtapozbliss@yahoo.com.

[edit] Unique phrases again

I've just removed the following. While in England, it may not be common to use place names as an addendum to university names, it is quite common in the U.S. and Australia (perhaps because of sheer size of the countries, branch campuses develop). Anyway if anyone has a problem w/ this, the original text is here.

• "Placenames appended as part of a formal organisation name: Indian Institute of Management Ahmedabad instead of Indian Institute of Management, Ahmedabad; possibly because a similar Indian Institute of Management is probably in another location and to differentiate between these, a location name has to be added, unlike in the case of University of Manchester or Massachusetts Institute of Technology. This appears to be common usage."

[edit] Reversions of "pain" and "fire" entries

I invite Yamamoto to discuss his reversions of these entries. Mirkhanshah 17:35, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stress-timing, sing-song, etc.

The section about Indic languages being "sing-song" and/or lacking syllable stress seems confusing, and I'm not convinced it's accurate. My impression of what's really happening is that many (possibly most?) Indic languages use a lower tone or pitch on stressed syllables — in contrast to most English dialects, where stressed syllables are generally pronounced with a higher pitch. This causes other English speakers to think that the Indian English speaker is stressing the wrong syllables, because they respond to the pitch contrast and misinterpret the higher pitch immediately before and/or after the Indian English speaker's intended stressed syllable as if that were the real stress point. For example, whenever one former co-worker of mine (whose native language was Tamil) would say the word "machine", it invariably sounded to me like he was saying "mission"; he was in fact stressing the second syllable, as far as he was concerned, but it simply didn't sound that way to me because of his pitch contour. If someone would like to try rewriting this part of the article, please go ahead; otherwise, I'll try my hand at it if no one else wants to volunteer. Richwales 05:11, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

It sounds a lot like you're just going from personal experience. Do you have a source for this? Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 07:58, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Jesus, does every word on Wikipedia have to have a reference now? Who the heck is going to write a paper on something so trivial? I've observed this phenomenon too. I think most native English speakers will agree with it. Surely there must be some room on Wikipedia for very simple, uncitable, uncontested things that are the general consensus (as there is in any encyclopedia, or any scholarly publication at all for that matter). Or did you actually disagree with the above claim? Xezlec 04:24, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

In this particular a citation seems necessary. The claim made is too specific, and Original Amit 05:06, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

This page states it as a known fact, and gives some references that may or may not be related. Does this satisfy you? http://www.linguistics.uiuc.edu/sala25/verma.htm Xezlec (talk) 05:38, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

That's Hindi only. In my personal experience, Hindi and north-Indian languages have a different stress pattern from other Indian languages; and besides the article is about English, which may be consciously pronounced differently. Just to be clear: what exactly is being contested here? shreevatsa (talk) 06:06, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

FWIW, I went ahead and added whatever seemed right to me (and possibly contradictory to what I said above ;-)) If someone thinks this is wrong; feel free to change it. shreevatsa (talk) 07:24, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Numbers of speakers

Unless I've missed it, there seems to be no mention in this article of how many people speak Indian English (which may or may not be the same as the number of people in India who can or do speak English). According to this article in the Guardian newspaper by David Crystal, there "must be" 350 million: "more than the combined English-speaking populations of Britain and the US". Does anyone have any recent figures? Flapdragon 12:59, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Poor content

This article has far too much unsubstantiated, and in my opinion, frivolous information. It doesn't reach anywhere near WP standards. Oops! I just remembered I'm on a wikibreak... Ta ta! Amit 16:45, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Error Regarding Non-Indian English

When explaining that Indian English uses expressions like "chai-vai" to mean "tea and stuff", the following claim is made:

This usage is not unknown in other English-speaking countries, e.g., Fran Drescher's autobiography "Cancer Schmancer".

This appears to be a misunderstanding. Although expressions like "Cancer Schmancer" exist in American English (I don't know about other dialects of English), this does not mean "Cancer and stuff". Rather, it means "I don't care about Cancer" or "Cancer is not a big deal to me". And the cluster "schm" is almost always used for this, rather than just some random initial consonant sound. I'm removing the above sentence from the article. If someone puts it back, please explain why. Xezlec 04:13, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, as a native speaker of US English who has lived in India for most of the past 16 years. The cluster "schm" in "cancer-schmancer" means exactly what you say, and I believe it comes from Yiddish. The reduplication I hear in India is always with an initial w/v (or occasionally b?) and means "and similar stuff." But I don't hear it all that often in the English spoken by well-educated Indians, and I don't think I've seen it in the magazines and newspapers, though I believe I've seen it in novels, where authors are often writing in English conversations that are meant to be originally in another Indian language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BeckyLadakh (talk • contribs) 10:56, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Any sources on Indian English intonation?

Does anyone here know any Wikipedia-citable sources describing the intonation (pitch pattern) of English as spoken by people from India?

I'm thinking in particular here of the pattern, apparently common to many languages of India, where stressed points in an utterance are marked by a lower pitch, followed by a rise in pitch in subsequent syllables. As a native speaker of English from North America, I would assert that this pitch pattern is confusing and often makes it sound as if the Indian speaker is stressing the wrong syllables (since most English dialects generally associate stress with higher, not lower pitch).

I attempted to mention this issue in the page on Non-native pronunciations of English, but I was shot down by other editors who wouldn't accept that my claim was sufficiently documented. I cited a source which discusses the pitch patterns of several languages of India, but this was dismissed as irrelevant on the grounds that the source did not talk specifically about these native intonation patterns being carried over into English or other second languages.

It seems that there aren't very many sources of information about intonation — perhaps because many writers don't take notice of it and/or assume (incorrectly) that it's "just natural" and doesn't need to be described. I'd be grateful if anyone could help me find something credible that talks about this intonation issue in Indian English. Thanks. Richwales 22:55, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Wells mentions it (work cited in the text):

"The questions of word stress, sentence accents, and intonation raise in acute form the problem whether certain typical pronunciation characteristics of Indian English should be regarded as belonging to an autonomous variety of English, with its own systems, structures, and rules, or as straightforward errors. 'A very common fault among Indian speakers', reports Bansal (1969: 143) 'is the incorrect stressing of English words, that is, differently from the usual RP pattern' (and, we might add, the pattern of other native-speaker varieties)... On rhythym, sentence accent (sentence stress), and intonation, I cannot do better than quote Bansal yet again (1969: 144). 'The sentence stress in Indian English is not always in accordance with the normal RP pattern, and the characteristic English rhythm is not maintained. The division of speech into sense groups and tone groups is sometimes faulty, and pauses are made at wrong places. The location of the intonation nucleus is not always at the place where it would be in normal English. The rising-tone sometimes used as the end of statements must sound unusual to the RP-speaking listeners'. Among his examples are I know `what you mean; ,Get me a `cup of tea, please (with no contrastive meaning intended); and `Don't take any `notice of them"

This is from Wells, Accents of English iii: 630-631. The work by Bansal he is quoting seems to be The intelligibility of Indian English, Hyderabad; Central Institute of English, 1969. Grover cleveland 03:39, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Use of Doctor for non-medical Phds

Is it normal to refer to people with Phds as "Doctor" in India. I went to a UK Mandir to meet the priest, who has a Phd in Sanskrit. I asked for Dr. Sherma and nobody seemed to know who I meant, so I said "the priest". Straight away they said, "ah, you want Shri Shirmaji". Is this normal in Indian Engish usage? -- Q Chris (talk) 10:17, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] influence of global economy

Has the neccesity of speaking the language of their customers had any influence on the language of Indians employed by foreign firms for customer and technical service? The article notes that "hello, what do you want?" is a common Indian English telephone greeting but I think that most America English speakers would find it abrupt and rude. The few times I've dealt with Indian customer service reps I've been impressed by their knowledge of American idioms and colloquialisms (or perhaps they've just been faking it, like my sister when her teen-aged kids are talking). 165.91.65.150 (talk) 23:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)RKH

Indian call centre reps take classes which teaches them the American idioms and colloquialims that you mention. They also have courses which offer to teach them how to speak with an american accent instead of an indian one. Now, I do not know if this is common throughout the whole call center industry but if i were to make an assumption based on the feature i saw on an indian tv channell a few months back, I would say many reps do undergoe training to appear more 'western'. Saadbd (talk) 06:31, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Citation needed

I have removed all citation needed for the section Idioms and Popular phrases. PLEASE NOTE THAT HAVING A CITATION FOR EACH AND EVERY WORD ON WIKIPEDIA IS AN IDEALISTIC, WISHFUL THINKING. This section had citation needed for each and every line!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In the future, please use careful discretion to make citation demands, and only for individual controversial cases. Additionally, I have also made changes in other sections, adding and clarifying on dress, non-veg, frock, foreigner, Mohammadan, full-pant, etc. Cygnus_hansa (talk) 09:53, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "make a move now" also used in NZ English

to mean "I'm leaving now/soon". ie "I'd better make a move, it's getting late" means "I'd best be off now, it's getting late" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.234.210.9 (talk) 05:16, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Section on colloquial usage

The section on colloquial usage is certainly written by someone from IIT (or a similar institute), and in no way represents Indian English. Should the section be pruned/deleted? --Robin (talk) 20:52, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Everything without a reference can be mercilessly deleted. shreevatsa (talk) 13:49, 24 July 2008 (UTC)