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[edit] Folk rock?Someone wrote: I've tried to clarify this. "Folk rock" is used very specifically and is typically far more recognised by instrumentation than form. Many folk musicians of the 60s (Tom Paxton, Phil Ochs etc) sang new, topical material (which distinguished them from traditional folk musicians) but in the folk idiom (acoustic instruments, traditional arrangements and often traditional melodies.) Re: the comment about "marketers" in the first paragraph. If language reflects common usage, what is now called "folk music" has as much right to the name as any other form. To the latter: fair enough, but does the first paragraph actually imply otherwise? --LMS [edit] Cynical remarkI like the page in general but wonder if the following is unnecessarily cynical (implying, as it does, a financial rather than artistic incentive to change musical styles):
Ya know, I agree, but I don't know how to change it right off. Anyone else want to give it a stab? --LMS The deletions are merely of things that seemed redundant. Additions may solve the problem of tone mentioned above. One bit of the original puzzles me, so I corrected the grammar but left it in--but what does "unrecognizable to its source" actually mean? I like the new additions--lots of good new information here. I added some more. The problem now is that the article is rambling and disorganized, and I am probably not the best person to organize and clarify it. BTW, using the word "purist," without the quotes, makes it sound as if the authors of the article are not purists, which we don't want to imply. :-) See neutral point of view. --LMS
[edit] Skiffle?Perhaps someone who knows the facts :-) could add in "Skiffle" music, from whence the Beatles sprang, which was evidently a British folk form in the 1950's. Certainly the Beatles stole (er, utilised!) many folk forms in their music. (date of question unknown, but it predates the answer below by months.)
John Lennon, of the Beatles, formed a group called The Quarrymen in 1957. Later, Lonnie Donegan brought skiffle to a wider audience. G4sxe 20:10, 16 January 2006 (UTC) I think we are going to need a List of folk musicians at some point soon. user:sjc [edit] POVThis page is ridiculous. I agree with the POV, but it is still a clear and obvious POV. I'm not sure how to fix it right now, but I will and come back. Tokerboy 09:00 Jan 18, 2003 (UTC) Article is getting long so I put in section headings; also a little bit on the classical composers who went folksong collecting. Sorry about the clash of prose styles.
[edit] Old listI removed the following list of folk styles, because I think it's too highly debatable to include without annotation. Maybe it could be moved to List of genres of folk music or something, but I'm not sure of the value of such a thing given the lack of any terribly agreeable definition of folk music. Tuf-Kat 20:41, Dec 19, 2003 (UTC)
[edit] "horses" remarkIs there any citation for the remark attributed to Louis Armstrong? I believe I've heard pretty much the same attributed to Bill Broonzy and I bet this obvious joke was made more than once. If it is there as a direct quote, it should be cited, otherwise at least it should be worded as an indirect quote. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:35, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)
Here's a citation for Broonzy saying this: [1], probably from a better source than a generic "quotes" site. And another: Michael Cooney, citing it here, is a pretty solid folk-revival musician himself (although he misspells "Studs Terkel"): [2]. Another site says it's attributed variously to Big Bill Broonzy, Woody Guthrie and Igor Stravinsky. [3]. Someone could probably do a pretty good article on the history of this quotation. I think I'll keep the quote in the article, use a better wording of it than the one there right now, and indicate how unclear it is who said it. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:49, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC) [edit] "Many feel"In the section "Variation in folk music" the phrase "Many feel..." begs for some citations. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:05, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Horses againI feel that the horse passage is really landing us in a muddle--we've got Igor Stravinsky as a popular musician now, which surely isn't right. The passage adds a lot to length, and it's not helping readers to understand folk music. So I excised, hoping not to elicit rage (or reversion)... I'm intrigued that the saying has been attributed to so many people, and think it might be worth installing elsewhere--say, in the Louis Armstrong article, or in Wikiquote? On another front, I pondered, and decided that the "Many feel..." passage is utterly POV and should go, too. Opus33 05:42, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC) For what it's worth, the removed paragraph (as I had left it, but with one further edit -- I had missed that misplaced word "popular") reads:
Probably doesn't belong in this article, perfectly glad to be rid of it. Wikiquote might be a good place for an extended version of this. Surely not in the Louis Armstrong article: I'd venture that he is one of the least likely of the people to whom it is attributed. My vote would be for Broonzy; Studs Terkel is still alive, so someone just might be able to get confirmation of that from the horse's mouth, so to speak. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:59, Oct 26, 2004 (UTC) [edit] The Singers' Club"the Singers' Club and was the first, as well as the most enduring, of what became known as folk clubs" Neither the first (Newcastle's folk club began in 1953) nor the most enduring (it closed its doors in 1991). The Troubabor lives on, as does Edinburgh's Sandy Bell's.
[edit] Gundula KrauseIs Gundula Krause well-enough known to merit mention in this article? I will readily admit to never before having heard of her. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:41, Jan 15, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Márta SebestyénSame question about Márta Sebestyén. I love her work, but is it that influential? --JButler 22:18, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] ReferencesAnyone know why in "References", Charles Seeger is a sub-section of Richard Middleton - or is this just a formatting error? -- SGBailey 22:19, 2005 Feb 6 (UTC)
[edit] Traditional musicI have redirected traditional music here, and added a paragraph on the term (please clean up the paragraph -- I can't think of a more graceful way to explain it). See talk:traditional music. Tuf-Kat 21:45, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC) [edit] Anglocentric ViewpointSince both ethnic music and traditional music redirect here, this article ought to be written from a culture-neutral point of view. As it is, nearly all the examples are from the American/English/Irish traditions only. Especially without the list of folk styles (above), the whole article gives the impression that folk music applies to certain cultures only, which is lamentable. Maybe a "folk music around the world" section would be in order? I'd also love to see "foreign" examples mixed in with the existing ones in the rest of the article also. --CodeGeneratR 18:57, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Texts not consulted in this article include (to name a few of the most egregious ommissions):
I won't even mention David Evans, Robert Palmer, Bill Ferris, and Jeff Todd Titon. People interested in this topic should consult all of these first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.250.132.201 (talk) 15:02, 15 July 2008 (UTC) The article as it stands is completely unacceptable. For one thing, as pointed out by others, it covers too small a geographical area and narrow time frame. The article "folk music" in the New Harvard Dictionary of Music (1986) by Bruno Nettl ought to be a model for how such an article ought to look. Nettl is the foremost authority in the field. His omission from the references is really telling. Nettl's Harvard Dictionary article is quite long -- 5 double-columned pages of small print -- as befits this complex topic. Also, since he is not American born, he has a broader point of view. Readers should know that Peter van der Merwe and Dave Harker, who appear to be the principle sources for the present wikipedia article, are controversial figures, who write from outside the mainstream. Though they may be very much worth reading, they should not be read in isolation from more reputable and balanced authorities by anyone who is seeking to inform themselves about what folk music is. Readers of Wikipedia deserve to be told what the objections are to van der Merwe and Harker's points of view. Perhaps there ought to be a separate category about the history of folk music scholarship and the various controversies and questions connected with it. The urban folk revival and folk rock also deserve separate entries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mballen (talk • contribs) 16:56, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
[edit] RiotFolk?Is RiotFolk really of enough significance to merit a mention in a general article about folk music? -- Jmabel | Talk 16:31, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Traditional music againSee talk:traditional music. I'd appreciate anyone's comments on what to do with that article (as well as trad and roots music, while we're at it). Essentially, I redirected traditional music to folk music some time ago, then took a wikibreak. During the wikibreak, someone made an article on trad, and there was a VfD about it, and it was redirected to traditional music on the basis that some non-folk compositions are credited "trad", and so a redirect to folk music would be inappropriate. I can see the logic here, but I don't know what traditional music could ever be about -- the practice of citing traditional popular songs as "trad"? That seems an absurd subject for an article. The user in question is no longer active, so I'm posting here in the hopes of getting some other opinions. (Roots music is completely unrelated to the current discussion, but I thought I'd bring it in since it's a related topic and may as well be dealt with at the same time) Tuf-Kat 04:44, September 9, 2005 (UTC) [edit] POV?Recently added paragraph beginning "Yet the ability to sing 'reasonably well' can be defined many different ways… seems to me like pure POV. I won't revert unilaterally, but I'm seeking consensus on that. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:26, September 9, 2005 (UTC)
I think one must be extremely careful in using the term 'tradition' or deeming music/songs to be 'traditional'. Firstly, both imply the fixed and unchanging existence of a concrete 'tradition,' which is quite simply false. Secondly, these debates have been the centre of disucssion by academics, artists and fans for decades and there is as yet one, unified definition of such terms. Some interesting reading could be done of some works by those like Philip Bohlman or Ron Ayerman and Andrew Jamison (amongst a hundered others; especially 'Poplore' by Gene Bluestein) and these would highlight certain aspects regarding this subject. Primarily, i feel such works are quite correct in their identifying no singular 'tradition' of folk music and therefore the impossibility of 'traditional' music. It is true music may belong to a 'tradition,' but only in its borrowing of particular practices or musical elements from the past. Thus, tradition is always the recreation of the past in the present moment, and as such 'tradition' is often created by those with political ideals for political purposes - as was the case with both the British and American folk song revivals. Thus, people like Llyod, MacColl and, Lomax and Seeger in America, were somewhat eager to portray the rural idealism of some imagined past community, in which people all worked together and orally passed on their songs and stories. To an extent this is true and oral transmission is a fundamental part of the folk process, but the singers/performers of these rural communities were not themselves 'traditional' as such, as they were only recreating the past in the present in their own time, which we can see in their appropriation/continuation of Child Ballads and other European ballad-forms in Virginia and Appalachia. However, to portray a unified community and the identity created through this is extremely useful propaganda for left-wing parties in particular who can use and have used the music to firstly, build national pride and secondly, unify large numbers of people under an ideology. Like i say, many have written entire books on this subject alone and therefore its somewhat difficult to say everything here but, just a few things to consider. Thanks
[edit] An example of a folk balladI removed a link to a sound file, which is a recording of one version of folk song "Barbara Allen". Folk music around the world is very differnt, it would be anglocentric and biased to offer only a sample of English folk music in the article (that should be) about all folk music. This is an English language Wikipedia, not bound to any country. If we offered an extensive amount of folk music samples, this page would get immense. So let's offer nothing here, and instead put them in the articles about specific music styles, OK? -Hapsiainen 15:11, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
I think the sample is a plus. I'd love to get half a dozen other samples which together would give some indication of how broad a category folk music is, but certainly a sample of one of the most durable folk songs in the English language is appropriate to an article on folk music written in any language. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:06, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Roots redirectI'm surprised that Roots redirects me here - artists performing "Roots" music often don't consider themselves to be Folk artists, though they can see the (musical) link Gwaka Lumpa 17:34, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Merge with FolkiesPer discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Folkies, it was decided to merge Folkies into this article. Enjoy. howcheng {chat} 00:14, 5 January 2006 (UTC) I have Folk Music as a hobby on my user page and I am a Folkie, so I agree. G4sxe 18:19, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] folk music footeri created Template:Contemporary folk music-footer last night but didn't add it to any pages as i then thought it would probably be better to move it to Template:Folk music-footer and expand it to link to other styles of folk music. thoughts on what else should be added? --MilkMiruku 18:41, 29 March 2006 (UTC) [edit] Room for Breton Folk musicAs this article is written in English, the place of Breton Folk music is very poor here, why so? There is much to say, even if we want to speak only of the influence of artists as Alan Stivell in the English speaking world. User:E1 14:05, 6 April 2006 [edit] Natural SelectionFrom "Variation in Folk Music": "A perfect process of natural selection would not have permitted these incoherent versions to survive." This line should be deleted, as it shows a poor grasp (or simply non-understanding) of the theory of natural selection (especially Dawkin's concept of Memes) and is simply put not true. Ebolart 16:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Loss of musical ability related to copyright expansion?I have noticed that as a nation industrializes, and folk music is replaced with popular music, the scope and duration of copyright tend to increase at the same time. Could fear of being caught performing popular music in public without a license, along with the strongly disputed affordability of public karaoke licenses from BMI and the like, be part of the reason why people lose musical skill? --Damian Yerrick (☎) 23:01, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] CindyWhy should Cindy remain? It's because this article is long on opinion and short on fact. In Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Let the facts speak for themselves, there is the example of an article on Hitler:
Cindy dispassionate listing of variant lyrics lets readers see for themselves how folk music morphs, as each singer changes existing verses to suit himself, and creates entirely new verses. Isn't that preferable to pseudo-experts pontificating from on high? And as far as being a "near-stub", of the twelve articles remaining in that list, six are shorter than [Cindy] and six are longer. ClairSamoht 07:27, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Jody CallsThis is an excellent article which has provided an immense amount of knowledge to myself. however, I must take exception to one passage. Let me provide the quote fom your article: "Other sorts of folk songs are less exalted ...In the armed forces, a lively tradition of jody calls are sung while soldiers are on the march." As an ex-soldier of the Australian army, I will take exception to that remark. The only army in the world to use "jody calls" is the American - let me be more precise - the only armed forces to use "jody calls" in the world are the American armed forces. Much to the merriment and cynical comment of myself and my fellow diggers when we first encountered an exhibition thereof. The German army sings marching songs and then shuts up. The English army has a sergeant calling the step "Left. Left. Left, Right, Left" and then the sergeant eventually shuts up. The Australian army justs shuts up The reasons I take exception to your passage are twofold: 1. "In the armed forces" - what and whose armed forces? There a few more armed forces in the world than the american forces. I would appreciate your being more precise. Maybe using this term would be more correct "In the armed forces of the United States of America,..." as this solves the concommitant problems of "whose armed forces" and "which part of America", a rather large land mass situated somewhat to the west of Europe and occupied by more than one sovereign state. 2. The underlying assumption in the article that only the United States of America need be considered is unthinkingly arrogant - a problem I have with many, if not most, of the entries in the Wikipedia. There are other countries in the world, all with their own culture and traditions. The best example of this unthinking arrogance is probably the address of the wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org. Had the wiki been initiated in Australia the address would be http://en.wikipedia.org.au, or in New Zealand, http://en.wikipedia.org.nz or in Germany http://en.wikipedia.org.de. The arrogance in the wiki entries lies along these lines - general discussion of subject as applicable to USA, then sub-sections of the discussion applicable to other countries. Why is the USA treated as special or different to the rest of the world? I must apologise for the vehemence of my remarks. As I said earlier - the article is excellent and has taught me much. Unfortunately, I arced up over the mention of the army. My apologies. John McLaren203.164.193.195 13:40, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] GA Re-Review and In-line citationsMembers of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 03:28, 26 September 2006 (UTC) [edit] Nut Hill ProductionsI cut the following (somewhat poorly formatted) external link, because it seems premature
I see no indication that those "150 hours of exclusive interviews" are anywhere on their site. If I'm missing something, please elucidate. - Jmabel | Talk 07:02, 15 October 2006 (UTC) [edit] ReferencesThe references were listed by hand. We should make use of the php reference system: Wikipedia:Footnotes. I converted two in-paragraph references to this, but the older references are just a bulleted list with no links to them anywhere in the article. If anyone has any idea what was cited from what, they should go through and mark the citations. Otherwise, we might want to consider moving these to the further reading section. Bjart 05:13, 5 November 2006 (UTC) [edit] Comment in article from anonno real change: I just love the wording. it captures the essence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.210.18.253 (talk • contribs) 06:17, December 3, 2006 [edit] Original researchThis article needs a lot of more of references its looks like Orginal Research at the moment (Gnevin 00:41, 2 January 2007 (UTC))
[edit] Good article Review of GA statusThis article is being reviewed at WP:GA/R for possible delisting of its Good article status. Teemu08 23:23, 24 January 2007 (UTC) [edit] Delisted GASince it's been technically warned for about 5 months and its still quite un-good, I think that was more than a fair amount of time to expect changes, and i've delisted this article. Homestarmy 17:25, 25 January 2007 (UTC) i love folk music but where exactly did it originate —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 90.240.114.89 (talk • contribs) 11 March 2007.
[edit] LongThis article is extremely long and dense. I would take inspiration from printed encyclopedias in editing this down to a size that makes it usable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Random task (talk • contribs) 21 March 2007. [edit] Major changes to World, Folk, Roots, and Traditional music pagesHi all. I think the pages for World music, Roots music, Folk music, and Traditional music need some changes. I've documented the ideas at Wikipedia:WikiProject World music/Definitions; if you could all respond on the talk page, that would be great! -- TimNelson 04:57, 8 May 2007 (UTC) [edit] Yuck.This article is just a mess. —Gaff ταλκ 08:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC) [edit] "the only singers to recieve an Order Of Canada"It says in the article "Simultaneous to the American folk movement was the Canadian folk movement, exemplified by artists Gordon Lightfoot, Leonard Cohen, and Joni Mitchell, all three of whom would become the only singers to receive an Order of Canada, and all of whom would achieve varying degrees of lasting international success." I thought K.D Lang (also a singer) has got an Order Of Canada? There may be others too? Beckyramone 17:56, 4 September 2007 (UTC) [edit] East Europe and BalkansThe East Europe and Balkans part is pure nonsence. Music of Southeastern Europe says: The music of the Slavic countries of southeastern Europe is quite significantly different to that the music of Eastern Europe, which includes the Slavic states of the former USSR. The latter was much more influenced by the common eastern Slavic culture, notably by Kievan Rus and more recently the USSR. What the Music of Bosnia and Herzegovina or Music of Montenegro or Music of Republic of Macedonia, which btw are not mentioned in the subsection at all, have incommon with the music of Belarus or Ukraine?! This is nonsence. The Balkan sound is dystinctive, its a story of its own. Dzole 12:36, 29 October 2007 (UTC) and the United Nation's webpage: Composition of macro geographical (continental) regions, geographical sub-regions, and selected economic and other groupings count most of the Balkan countries as belonging to | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
