Talk:Eastern Europe

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I think it should add some article about the geographie of east europe,only politic is not enough!!

[edit] Cetral Europe

Where is a Central Europe? I think, it could be better at Czech or Slowak rep.

[edit] Transcaucasus

Are Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia part of Eastern Europe? - User:Olivier

I would assume they would be considered to be so when considered to be part of Europe at all; see Talk:Europe. --Brion

Culturaly Georgia and Armenia ARE EUROPA. They both are cristians. But culturaly they are more like southern Europe. Especialy much in common with Basque country and Sicilia. North Caucasus (fo example Chechenia) are more like Asia. 159.148.71.250 06:04, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Not really. They should be put in the same region as Turkey, if anything. And speaking of Christianity, the Assyrians, for instance, are Christian as well, but I don't remember anyone calling them European. Humanophage 20:23, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] former Soviet Union

In fact, in the Eastern Europe article, listing the "former Soviet Union" is too vague. Some of the former republics geographically belong to Europe (Belarus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Ukraine, part of Russia)- according to the Europe article. Some others clearly do not (Central Asian republics, for instance). The article should probably give more details about that. - User:Olivier

[edit] East Germany

Shouldn't the former Eastern Germany be included as having historically been part of Eastern Europe? - User:Olivier

I wouldn't describe Poland as part of Eastern Europe. They belong culturally (they're roman catholics) and politically to Central Europe.

Hey, the same arguments would apply to Croatia, but it's a moot issue... --Shallot 14:32, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Uh, so being Catholic makes you Western European? That's interessting. Are the Philhippines and all of South America western european too?Thehairthatdidntgrow 23:58, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

If you want to DIVIDE EUROPE, divide it in anthropological terms, - that is - racially. Then most of East, Central, West and North Europe or Caucasoid Europe will become the true Europe while parts of East and South Europe will become pro-Asiatic, Mediterranean stock and Middle Eastern Europe. DO NOT divide by income, religion or political system. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.11.161.52 (talk) 17:29, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Russia

Since when is Russia not part of Eastern Europe? Is this your own new definition of that term in the USA and Britain? Note that elsewhere in the world Eastern Europe has always included Russia. – Greetings from a German intellectual from Wikipedia Germany, User:Woldemar

I fixed that blatant omission. --Shallot 14:32, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Russia (RF) is Eastern Europe all the way to Japan even if they own the conquered Asian lands, but same as predominantly Caucasoid North America (US, Canada) owns some previously non-European lands. Many, some or even most Russians indeed are of a Eurasian stock, mixed blood line of Caucasoid, Mongoloid and Semitic genes. And then look back 20,000 years ago - who owned the North Europe during the Ice Age? No one. It could become Asian or African as well. North India was the place where all the Caucasians came from. Stop playing the sand box game and GROW UP. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.11.161.52 (talk) 17:32, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] old and new

It seems to me that we need two lists – the groups of countries that composed Eastern Europe during the Cold War (basically the Soviet sphere of influence), and what became of that, i.e. how things are named right now. --Shallot 14:32, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] communist or Communist?

I'm not an expert on capitalization rules in English, but see: Communism#Writing "Communism" or "communism". – Kpalion 11:55, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

In the context of generally describing these countries as "communist", I don't think it needs capitalization. The parties which formed those governments weren't all called "Communist", either. --Joy [shallot] 17:53, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] "Problems with this definition"

Ronline, why didn't you post this fairly slanted text in Talk first so that we can discuss it? A cursory look at the page history would have revealed that there had been disagreements regarding the definitions before, let's not repeat history... --Joy [shallot] 10:28, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What do you mean by "this fairly slanted text"? The reason I included it is to clear things up a bit regarding what is and what is not Eastern Europe. The first paragraph of the article is an introductory statement, while the second paragraph ("Contemporary Eastern Europe") puts forward the correct definition of Eastern Europe. "Extended Eastern Europe" refers to the definition of Eastern Europe containing all of former-Communist Europe. There is also a section, the one I wrote, about problems with this definition. This argues, in what I see as a NPOV manner, why the extended definition is problematic (first paragraph). Other terms, such as New Europe, are also discussed. I don't see how this inclusion will cause arguments, especially since it is more NPOV than before. Before, the article basically was written from the point-of-view of an extended Eastern Europe, which causes controversies in Central Europe, Northern Europe and Southeastern Europe. It is already enough that the non-Eastern European former-Communist countries have to live with being included in this article in the first place. Ronline 06:10, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Styles and/or HTML

When I look at this page with Firefox, I don't see the map. I see it with IE, though. Perhaps there's some invalid HTML or CSS.

[edit] Inaccuracy of Recent Edit

The recent edit introduces several inaccuracies that are confusing:

1. Removes Baltic countries – the 3 Baltic countries are commonly included in today's identification of Eastern Europe
2. Unknown and confusing edit as end
3. Russia is not part of Eastern Europe (when people talk about this region, they always state "Russia and Eastern Europe")
4. Misleading and inaccurate map – a proper map would color the countries listed, maybe coloring Russia a different color and Central Europe, see that page, a different color

--Noitall 13:10, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

To mitigate Noitall's confusion:

1. There is no common "today's identification of Eastern Europe". What may be common identification in the local newspapers of, e.g., West Virginia is not necessarily common in European English-language press. In today's British press, for example, one finds Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, etc. more often in the same group (sometimes Central, sometimes Eastern Europe, sometimes "EU accession countries", etc.), and very rarely would one see, e.g., Poland in CE and Lithuania in EE in the same source. After all, all these countries are members of the European Union (news of which, of course, travel slower to the other side of the Atlantic).
2. Europe can be divided into two: WE/EE (the question being where to draw the boundary). However, Europe cannot be logically divided into four: WE/CE/EE/Russia; as you seem to think "people talk about". One cannot carve out CE, ignoring the existence of NE (and SEE, etc.)The introduction of CE and NE indeed creates some confusion with the three Baltic nations as they could be classified into either CE or NE (in any case, much more than into EE), in many ways the closest country to Catholic Lithuania is Catholic Poland, and to Lutheran Finnic Estonia is Lutheran Finnic Finland.
3. Saying "Russia is not part of Eastern Europe" is nearly equal to saying "Russia is not part of Europe", which is inaccurate, to put it diplomatically. "Russia and Eastern Europe" in Cold-War-speak usually translated to "USSR and its communist satellites".
4. Of course, neither map is perfectly accurate. Ideally an accurate and civilised map should have one colour for EE, one for NE, one for CE, one for SEE, and then (as you wish) perhaps one shade for Russia and another for the rest of EE, then the Baltic countries in NE/CE stripes, some CE stripes covering N&W-Ukraine, some SEE stripes over Moldova, Croatia in CE/SEE stripes, Greece and Cyprus in SEE/EE stripes etc. etc. However, the folks in West Virginia might consider it even more confusing... so there you go, know-it-all American friend. Anon 10:25 CET 21 July 2005

• Ok, I only have time for one comment right now. Russia is not Eastern Europe. It is so far out is is frequently called Asia or Eurasia. This term has no meaning at all, and neither does the term "Europe", if Russia is included. --Noitall 14:06, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

The Baltics are always included in Eastern Europe. They are also included in Northern Europe, and this page appropriately provides a reference to it. It is obviously possible to be in two overlapping categories. But Northern Europe does not have the usefulness and meaning that this does, and any discussion can be on the Baltic page. --Noitall 19:28, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

"Baltics are always...", "Northern Europe does not have the usefulness..." – whose intelligence are you trying to insult with your misinformed arrogance? Are you sincerely suggesting to Estonians that amongst Finland, Russia, Moldova, and Poland there is only one country with which Estonia "always" "usefully" belongs to the same region, and that country is... Moldova?! Good clean fun. --3 Löwi 22:11, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

What is your argument? It makes no sense whatsoever. Are you arguing just to stir up trouble? Are you arguing that Finland and Poland belong in Eastern Europe? THIS PAGE IS EASTERN EUROPE PAGE, NOT NORTHERN EUROPE. Go on that page if you have some argument about Northern Europe. Let's stick to the topic. --Noitall 23:43, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

OK. How simplistic an argument would you rather prefer? The point is that Estonia is no more Eastern European than Poland. What you say, that Poland belongs to Central Europe and Estonia belongs to (Far-)Eastern Europe, as Russia is not in Europe at all – that makes no sense whatsoever. Or if you want it even more simplistic, I shall paraphrase what you said: this page is about the region of Europe where I happen come from, not about America, where I reckon you are. So, if you have argument, go on that USA page... Cheers, --3 Löwi 07:24, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Your arguments still make no sense. If I try to say that my state of Maryland is in the Western USA, you are entitled to change it. And this page speaks to the world view, not your local view. --Noitall 13:57, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Your edits on the page are getting better, but we are still not there. Eastern bloc included Central and Eastern Europe along with Russia. Eastern Europe never included Russia. That is why there is a difference in meaning with the terms. The most relevant should be how the divisions are being used today, and my original list of countries is accurate (actually, it is Central Europe which should be more difficult, not Eastern Europe). --Noitall 23:06, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

In the Cold War speak it was indeed Eastern Bloc = "old Eastern Europe" + USSR. In other words, "Eastern Europe" then did not include Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova and did NOT include the Baltic countries (all of them were "in USSR", and not in "old Eastern Europe"). I understand that you understand why some "old Eastern European" countries are now classified into "new Central Europe" or into Balkans. Trust me, you will see fewer difficulties once you also understand the equally valid reasons for including the Baltic countries (which weren't even in the "old Eastern Europe", mind you) now in either the "new Northern Europe" (esp. Est. and Lat.) or "new Central Europe" (esp. Lith.). Cheers, --3 Löwi 00:13, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Ok, not a bad way of introducing the para. Couple comments on existing:

1. European countries of the former "Eastern Bloc" - good beginning, but the rest is redundant (Russia not in Europe) and Soviet Union makes it incorrect
2. the western boundary of the former Soviet Union - redundant and unneessary, addressed the Eastern bloc already and have a para on CIS in here
3. the western boundary of historically Eastern Orthodox and Islamic countries - totally confusing and not helpful, such analysis belongs down below in description
4. some other arbitrarily chosen boundary in the west - my edit below encompasses (and this really says, in summary, "we have no idea")

Need to add mine, which is accurate, but I concede that there are other versions of Eastern Europe:

1. the variously and vaguely defined area of Central Europe - perhaps this should be labeled "new Eastern Europe"

--Noitall 04:21, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

• 3 Löwi, I am afraid that you are adding in your own original research and thoughts. This is a world page. One way, the most common way, the world looks at this region is West to East (or vice versa). Since you live in the area, you might have your own way of emphasizing, perhaps using your North to South distinction. This is not appropriate for the Eastern Europe page, please go to the Northern Europe page. And your own personal viewpoint is not appropriate in any event. --Noitall 14:35, August 3, 2005 (UTC)

I am afraid, Noitall, that you are mixing up fact with fiction (and a certain obsession with the concept of Central Europe, at the expense of other regions). Please take out the map and check whether, e.g., Moldova lies "between" Russia and Central Europe (your definition). I don't know what is your definition of "the area" you think I live in (in fact, last 4 years in UK, before that 7 years in USA) and what is your definition of the world, but I can assure that in the British press seldom does one see Romania and Bulgaria classified as Central Europe. The credit for this (original:) idea goes to you on the other side of the Atlantic. Cheers, --3 Löwi 17:21, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] American stereotype

BTW, on an entirely unrelated issue, you made a comment before that I believe is the stereotype of Americans in Europe and elsewhere. You would be suprised at the international inter-relationships here. All of our Ocean City, Maryland is currently filled with summer students from Eastern Europe (I guess if we decide where it is). Our waterpark features Belarussian divers. A major Russian newpaper is produced in Baltimore, Maryland.[1] The Russians have a dacha nearby on the shores of the Chesapeake. All the Embassies are in Washington, D.C. And I could go on and on. We are a nation of immigrants and many people embrace those backgrounds. --Noitall 04:50, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

And I should not forget, the Capital of Maryland, Annapolis, Maryland is a "sister city" with Tallinn, Estonia. --Noitall 04:54, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Map

I'd put this on the map talk page, but it is unlikely that anyone would see it. I think that the map should have a key that says what the colors stand for. I believe that these are the divisions.

• Turquoise - Central Europe
• Blue - Northern Europe
• Red - Western Europe
• Orange - Eastern Europe
• Green - Southern Europe
• Purple - Asia

-- Kjkolb 22:18, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bosnia , Croatia, Montenegro -> Yugoslavia???

Listen, I am sick of people constantly arguing that Russia is not part of Eastern Europe. There is nothing you can do about that fact. If you are ashamed of it, tough luck. I do want to clarify that putting Romania and Bulgaria out of Eastern Europe is incorrect. Go to [[2]] and see for yourself. They do belong in it. Now, Bosnia, Croatia, (Montenegro -> (Which should split April 2006)) should not be put under the same color that Romania and Bulgaria are. Yes, the all belong to the Balkans, but that (Balkan) is only a region. Yugoslavia was no corrupt like the rest of the Eastern Bloc countries. Learn HISTORY before speaking and arguing. Josip Broz Tito created along with Nehru and Nasser formed the Non-Aligned Movement. YUGOSLAVIA did not belong to either NATO or EASTERN BLOC. The devastating Russian influence that corrupted the nations of Poland, Czech Rep., Slovakia, Romania, Moldova, Bulgaria, the (Baltic States) etc., did not affect Yugoslavia.

Also the Rolling Stones came to Zagreb in the (June 21-22 1976) 1970s showing that Yugoslavia had it better than any Eastern Bloc nation. In conclusion, along with the History Channel, in Russia people were forbidden from listening tot he Beatles, etc.!!!!

Not even through location, territory, language, culture, economy, and politics can you say that the Former Yugoslavia countires were in the same geographical filed as Romania and Bulgaria. Come on people get it right. --Kseferovic 12:17, March 29, 2006 (UTC)

Sure, Romania and Bulgaria are backwards, not like the majestic and developed Yugoslavia. All this coming from an user with "-ic" at the end (you know what I mean). Geographically it is incontestable that they are in Central Europe, together with Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland, Italy, Germany, Czech Republic, Austria, Hungary, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Greece, Albania, Macedonia, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia and European Turkey. If you divide Europe in 3 equal parts, the border between Eastern and Central Europe is exactly in Istanbul. Which puts both Romania and Bulgaria fully in central Europe. Putting them anywhere else is just politics. "Not even through location, territory, language"? What do you mean? The language is slavic, much closer to Russian than Romanian which is closest to Italian. Bulgarian is even closer to Russian, but this still neutralizes your argument.

[edit] Unnecessary map?

Did anyone notice that the very first map of the article, is completely useless and unrelated to the article?

I mean, it's regions aren't even labeled properly (the only thing that's labeled is the supposed "Eastern Europe" and it lacks proper borders.

Also, the countries that are striped are EXTREMELY confusing since there is absolutely no explanation of their meaning. Hell this map even lacks a proper legend.

I say it should be replaced with a better map, such as the one here http:// www.mapsofworld.com/europe-country-groupings/eastern-europe-map.jpg , or something similar. --Lenev 23:41, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This is quite possibly one of the most misguided articles I have ever seen on Wiki.

This article is a joke and demonstrates perfectly one of the major flaws of Wikipedia; people advocating a certain viewpoint rather providing information. Obviously there is no set definition of a vague region like Eastern Europe but this article goes out of its way to avoid the most commonly held definition of the region in the English-speaking world. The idea that Eastern Europe consists only of former Soviet countries like Russia and Belarus while excluding the Baltics, Poland, etc. may have some legitimacy in some circles but just is not the commonly used defination in English speaking countries. Obviously being considered a part of Eastern Europe is offensive to some in certain countries that resent being seen as Eastern Europe but that is no excuse for the silly state of this article. Its ridiculous. Not one mention of the commonly used definition of the region as including countries like Poland, Hungary, or Lithuania and somebody even edited the UN list so that five of the countries the UN defines as Eastern European were removed from the list. Just an article really going out of its way to emphasize how hard it is to define the region or describing it as a post-world war II all the while the fact it is a commonly used term in the world and has a common meaning in English-speaking countries. Discuss the vagueness of the term Eastern Europe and the fact that some people are offended by it but don't make this article a joke by utterly ignoring the most definition for the region in English-speaking nations like Britain, the US, or Australia. --Westee 15:53, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This is what the UN are for

Wikipedia does not represent any 'commonly used definitions' of some informal unwarranted conceptions like 'The English Speaking Countries.(in response to Westee's post)

And the map in this article is JUST hilarious representing another conception of how the Europe should be divided in regions. Obviously a conception of a Pole, who apparently is having major difficulties with where to pigeonhole all the other countries after Poland has been included in Central Europe.

Actually being labled an EastEuropean is very stigmatizing and i think the UN map is a wee bit incomplete not representing Central Europe.

my point is why the hell couldn he just fox up the central europe and leave the rest of the map as the UN-the most authoritive source there could ever be, made it. In comparison with the UN map Slovenia has been moved from South Europe to CE(??????),the Baltic States have been moved from Northern Europe to Eastern Europe (did that make him feel better or what??????)Romania is still an East European country whereas Bulgaria has been moved to southern europe.. and so on(not to mention that the Caucasus has all of a sudden become belonging to Europe)

It's just ridiculous I just saw how The Baltic States have gradually been tranferred from Northern Europe first to CE (only Lithuania i wonder does that have to do anything with the close historical linkage between Lithuania and Poland..)and then to Eastern Europe.

actually i don't care that much while The Baltic States are considered belonging to Northern Europe in the article about Northern Europe..

Agreed on the point that the article should stick to official definition, as done in Western Europe. As of now it is misleading an plainly bad. But that what makes wikipedia so lovely. Thehairthatdidntgrow 00:03, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Feudalism

The peoples to the west and north of the Huntington line are Protestant or Catholic; they shared most of the common experiences of Western European history – feudalism, the Renaissance, the Reformation, the Enlightenment, the French Revolution, and the Industrial Revolution.

In fact feudalism existed in Eastern Europe just as well as in Western Europe.--Nixer 09:38, 9 September 2006 (UTC) Eastern Europe and especialy Russia still have much feudalism. Industrial revolution was everywhere, just in Russia it ended with communist revolution;) 159.148.71.250 06:13, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1st Map

The first map currently uses an image which quotes "Regions of Europe According to: http://wikitravel.org/en/Europe " as its source, however the representation (region names and country groupings) are different from the quoted source. --3 Löwi 08:39, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Czech Republic

It is a part of eastern europe only because of cold war era. Historically as a member of Holy Roman Empire there is no doubt it is a Central Europe. But for era 1945-1989 it is true and correct. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 22:44, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Geography has not much to do with the cold war blocks. --Cepek 12:50, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

The definition of Western, Eastern, Northern and Southern parts of Europe are only based on physical geography to a minor degree, I would say. The same with the whole definition of Europe. For the most part, it's just race and culture, as it was reasonably pointed out in the Catholic Encyclopedia. Humanophage 20:38, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please check

Could someone familiar with this article please check out Zenit4ever's contributions to it? The user seems to be rather unconstructive. http://en.wikipedia.org/description/Special:Contributions/Zenit4ever Greswik 14:45, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Turkey

Turkey is definitely in Western Europe because it is Muslim and NATO member.--Certh 09:14, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I think you mean Eastern Europe. For me, it's transcontinental. 217.159.144.141 (talk) 13:09, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] UN definition and map

the countries listed as being in Eastern Europe, as defined by the UN stats devision, do not correspond to the list given on this page. e.g. Czech Republic is in Eastern Europe (going by UN source), but not listed here.

Where should Austria belong? Have you ever read Central Europe? --Cepek 12:45, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

One more comment. UN geographical region and composition codes do not define Central Europe(!)

http://unstats.un.org/unsd/methods/m49/m49regin.htm

would you say that central Europe does not exist? If we deny existence of Central Europe, then the Czech republic really belongs to the (UN) Eastern Europe. If you really think this the case, please start with deleting article Central Europe first. --Cepek 13:14, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I have read central europe. This is not a matter of opinion. Czech is in Eastern Europe. Austria is in Western Europe. Bear in mind this is an English language page, and in English there is no doubt as to this. The terms East, West, North, South are about more than physical geography, and the reluctance of Czechs to consider themselves part of Eastern Europe has nothing to do with this article.

... Czech is in Eastern Europe. Austria is in Western Europe, your logic is superb, could you please tell me where did the former Austrian Empire belong? --Cepek 15:16, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, the UN stats division is a good source. If we were to consider Czech to be in Central Europe then we would need an equally good source. Other than Kundera's speeches, I can'f find anything of a similar level of authority as the UN.

I must repeat it again, there is nothing like Central Europe according to UN classification. Thus the article Central Europe must be deleted! Do not be ridiculous. --Cepek 14:36, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Jamierc 13:46, 8 April 2007 (UTC)jamierc

It's not just the Czechs, it's everyone. Eastern Europe has such a stigma attached to it and nobody cares where the centre is for one to east and another west. Estonians identify closely with Finns, Latvians and Lithuanians equally try to forge a relationship with the Nordic states, Belarussians, Czechs, Poles and Slovaks boast something of a "German" character about themselves. Hungarians long for their past union with Austria, Slovenia also feels Austrian in character - Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro and Albania feel the need to be more "Meditteranean" and look accross the water to Italy, whilst Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Macedonia like to identify with the Greeks, much due to Orthodox church. So it leaves only Russian Federation as Eastern Europe but they too deep down probably spend their idol hours trying to establish behavioural patterns with the Dutch and the Belgians. In Croatia, the older wiser less-actively political folks joke about the change in attitude they witnessed in the last decades: you used to have Eastern and Western Europe when there was an iron curtain and now Eastern Europe suddenly doesn't exist any more! Everyone has come out of the closet, spoken ill of communism and sought to forge links to their nearest Western European neighbours. Poles, Czechs, Slovenes, Serbs (mainly from Vojvodina) are all CENTRAL Europeans. You'd think this would make them a new social group which includes Switzerland, Austria, Lichtenstein and Bavaria, but the residents of them countries STILL call THEMSELVES Western Europeans, so if there's a west, there is also an east. The young ignorant "former" Eastern Europeans generally feel that theirs is the only country with a modern scene, and that miraculously they belong to western/central Europe but the other Eastern European countries are trapped behind time! Today, Croatia is part of a trading block with one one other country; it is called the Central European Free Trade Agreement and the partner is Macedonia. Funny I know. Originally it was formed by old Comecon states, Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia etc. But who cares? The creation of this fiasco served as nothing more than a transition into joining the EU - first, they turn their backs on Moscow, then they rejoin each other (effectifely having thrown Moscow out of their gang), then they all apply to join the EU with their leaders spending 15 years following the US and the UK leaders with the begging bowl, sending their soldiers to help them wherever they interfere, swearing lifelong allegience. Then they abandon the marvelous CEFTA. Today, its only "Central European" states are Croatia and Macedonia, because the others abandoned us when they joined the EU. Apart from the fact that Macedonia and Croatia are candedates for joining the EU, we will next year be joined by the rest of the ex-Yugoslav countries with the pleasure of Albania and Moldova or so I'm told. In Croatia we joke, that Central Europe (not including pre-2004 EU members or Switzerland or Austria) is the new Eastern Europe. My point is, don't blame the Czechs, they are not alone in this. Balkantropolis 14:11, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Before any other discussions one point must be clarified. Is there anything like Central Europe or not? Why is German point of view in this case different than that of those who speak English? Also the map must be censored because it does not agree with UN division of the world. --Cepek 14:57, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to let this lie. Its obviously more important to Czechs that they are not part of eastern europe. Perhaps if you keep fighting, one day you can change the history books completely and convince people that Czech is actually part of Western Europe. You apparently dont care about content being attributable to a reliable source, so why not change it to Western Europe.

Incidentally I dont care about the German term of Mitteleurope, this is an English page, and so English linguistic terms count. Balkantropolis - interesting post. Jamierc 18:55, 8 April 2007 (UTC)jamierc

Taking it calmly, my edit was wrong and I must apologise (the division used here is based on the UN clarification, no discussion). My point of view is that there is no logic in UN division of Western and Eastern Europe. Or is there? The UNSD is clearly based on the former postwar Iron Curtain frontier. And the line was drawn in Yalta Conference. Am I trying to change the history books? But you are right that there are more important things to fight for than UN countries codes.. --Cepek 20:43, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

The UN definition is correct.--67.118.133.134 20:45, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Central Europe exists:

• http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article-9362142 Country, central Europe.
• http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761556878/Czech_Republic.html landlocked country in central Europe,
• https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ez.html Location: Central Europe, southeast of Germany

and even UN works on new political divison of Europe with term Central Europe [3] --Li-sung 22:55, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Jamierc, you have reverted Central Europe in Czech Republic again. Frankly speaking I am a bit surprised. Do you consider the arguments presented by Li-Sung irrelevant?

Czech lands have thousand years of history and tradition of belonging to European western civilisation and four decades of Soviet communists' rule. Does the latter mean more to you? Could you understand that for people who had to live under foreign Soviet rule this might be arrogant or even offensive? Have you read the reasoning given in http://unstats.un.org/unsd/geoinfo/gegn23wp48.pdf ? --Cepek 08:27, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Li-sungs points were good, and well-sourced. I'm not concerned about offending Czech sensibilities,just concerned in not being self contradictory. ie how can both Eastern Europe and Central Europe article both claim Czech to be part of themselves, and how can we use the UN stats as a source, but then contradict it in the Czech article?

Any idea how to reconcile this? Is it ridiculous to say something like 'Czech has strong historical links to both Central and Eastern Europe' ?

My main point is that we shouldnt base english language articles on fear of offending ex-communist countries, but rather on accepted terminology, and consistent sources. I wouldnt argue with te Czech language article on Eastern Europe, or the Czech Republic (vnitrozemský stát ve střední Evropě)

Does not the problem stem from the fact, that English speaking countries traditionally have not been much involved in Central and/or Eastern Europe? (my comment: unfortunately). I read several Russian articles like Восточная Европа today and to my surprise they agree with the Czech point of view (I had expected them to see the frontier of Eastern Europe placed much farther to the west; ... well, the articles I read today were not very good and with some really terrible mistakes).

I am sure that your sentence Czech has strong historical links to both Central and Eastern Europe is correct and surely acceptable but it does not solve the problem if Czechs belong to Central/Eastern Europe. What I would like to say is that the articles Eastern Europe and Central Europe are both good and I have nothing against them. Personally I would be quite happy if in the Czech Republic the wording could be a landlocked country in Central Europe.

Also I went through articles Poland, Slovakia and Hungary and all of them claim their countries to be in Central Europe. Does it represent a problem to the English language?, I hope not. The history of Central and/or Eastern Europe has been complicated and difficult. I was never offended myself being called Yugoslavian (used to be a common mistake) I just took it as a mistake. Similarly I feel that when I am called easterneuropen (how should I translate východoevropan, západoevropan, středoevropan?) I feel that it is not correct. What is typical for central European countries is (quote) ... synchronic or diachronic existence of Protestantism and Catholicism, while Orthodoxy and Islam play only marginal roles. There is nothing bad on Orthodoxy neither on Islam but this is not our tradition. Cepek (talk • contribs) 14:32, 9 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] About Estonia

Estonia is Eastern Europe, not northern. this is a really serious mistake. Yoosq 12:16, 24 April 2007 (UTC).

Are you sure of that ? MaCRoEco 21:56, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Of course i'm sure, i even asked my geographic teacher. Yoosq 13:40, 26 April 2007 (UTC).

In fact, all the three states asked not to be considered Eastern Europe.--Certh 06:46, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

None wants to be Eastern Europe;) 159.148.71.250 06:09, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Estonia is an Eastern european country.

It's not "better" nor "worse" to be Eastern European, it's a question of culture - hope you're not anthropocentric. It may be weird to be called Eastern European if someone is not. Eastern Europe has different (Byzantine) culture than the Baltic states. The Baltic States are NOT one entity as well. Estonia is Scandinavian, in fact they are Finnish people and Estonian is a language of Finnish family. That's why there are so many conflicts between Estonians and Estonian Russians (Russians - very Slavic, warm, talkative while Estonian people are rather Nordic: a bit cold and silent). Latvian culture is marked by German Balts (which are often not of German origin) and German culture predominates there. Lithuania was historically in union with Poland and presents Central European culture (Vilnius as Jerusalem of the North as described by P. Matvejevitch). Montessquieu (talk) 23:35, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kazakhstan and Turkey

'Kazakhstan

Note that Turkey is in fact an Eurasian country, but is not counted as an eastern-European eurasian country' What? Why does Kazakhstan are included in Europe? It is pure Asia. But if Greece are included as Eastern Europe, Turkey also should. Even if they don't like each other, they are much the same. 159.148.71.250 06:09, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Geographically europe's borders are the Ural mountains, the Caucasus mountains and the bosphorus, thus both Turkey and Kazakhstan are, to a small part, in Europe.Thehairthatdidntgrow 22:29, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

First of all, Greece is included in Southern Europe. And then Turkey is about as European as Kazakhstan. Indeed, the sole reason why Turkey might be likened to Greece is that the Turks conqured a part of Byzantium, which was Greek at its core. But certainly it's not a viable reason, otherwise you could treat the Mongols as Europeans, since they conqured a part of Europe as well. So did the Arabs and the Berbers at one point. Turkey is by no means a barbaric country, but why should that automatically mean that it's European? Humanophage 20:41, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Turkey shouldn't even be mentioned in a European map... It has nothing to do with Europe. Iaberis (talk) 05:43, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What the heck Finland is doing in this article?

I think someone made a mistake when he or she made part of Finland to be marked to be part of Eastern europe. This is a clear big mistake. They were not part of communist countries during the Cold war.

As you can read from the article there are several different definitions of the term. Finland is, in fact, geographically at the northeasternmost edge of europe. Thehairthatdidntgrow 22:26, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

"East" does not equal "Communist". Okay? Finland geographically is in the very eastern Europe. Or North-East to be exact, along with Western Russia. Culturally Finns (so did the "east european" Estonians and Hungarians as well) came from the area of Urals which is considered borderline with Asia (Eurasia). Caucasoids live and lived in Central and Western Asia for milleniums. What you are trying to achieve is a financially backed economical racism. For instance, Czechia or Lithuania is geographically more west than Finland and culturally too. It does not mean we are inferior to the Finns just because we were under a dictatorship (let's not call it a communism, okay?) for 30-50 years. Communism does not equal East. East is a geographical term while "communism" or "dictatorship" is a political term.

If we draw a straight West-East line - Sweden, most of Norway, most of Italy, 1/2 of Germany, most of Austria will become East Europe (geographically). Culturally Western Ukraine is West Europe while Greece and Finland are East Europe (culturally) or anthropologically can even be considered Asian or Eurasian. Culturally parts of Turkey is Europe. So is Cyprus or Malta. Also: Moldova used to be part of Romania not so long ago. Once Romania integrates with the EU Moldova will probably reunite with Romania. No East or West, just EUROPA. So why don't you PLEASE STOP diving Europe! Just my lithuanian 2 cents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.11.161.52 (talk) 17:24, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

"Finland are East Europe (culturally) or anthropologically can even be considered Asian" heh, that's your 19th century racism, according to modern science, Finns are anthropologically most European people of the World. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikinist (talk • contribs) 19:25, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

To be honest, it looks like you have not studied geography enough. As we all know Finland does not have any Asian features, instead Finland is culturally completely Western European, I am not sure about Greece though. And looks like I can agree, lets stop diving Europe :) --88.195.244.136 (talk) 05:57, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] on map_east_europe.svg

Europe does by no definition stretch itself further than the Ural mountain chain firstly. Secondly it is not clear what kind of "Eastern Europe" it shows and in what context it shows it, there are there are several different definitions... therefore I delete it for now :) Thehairthatdidntgrow 22:22, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Let me guess.... this is a discussion on "who's whom... or who's richer and who's better"... right? Yet another (unsuccessful) attempt to divide Europe. Why don't you just draw straight lines even if the lines divide single countries and call it a shot. Geographical division and only. No political,no economical, no who's whom or who's richer. In fact, Finland has been called as "The 16th Republic" (of the USSR) for it's close ties and obedience of the Soviet dictatorial regime. Austria is clearly in Eastern Europe, even I'd say Vienna looks and feels like Eastern Europe. Look, east European Czechia or Slovenia are now richer than west European Portugal. Soon other "east" European countries will become richer than almost anything in the "west". You will see, it will happen in our lifetime. My preference is to not divide Europe but to unite it. Difficult, but can be done (right). STOP diving Europe! I am Lithuanian and I don't care where (east, west, heaven, hell or central stone) I live. STOP DIVIDING EUROPE! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.11.161.52 (talk) 17:12, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Huntington, religions and civilizations

"As the ideological division of the Cold War has now disappeared, the cultural division of Europe between Western Christianity, on the one hand, and Eastern Orthodox Christianity and Islam, on the other, has reemerged." Because Huntington says so? WTF? "It follows the so-called Huntington line of "clashing civilizations" corresponding roughly to the eastern boundary of Western Christianity in the year 1500. This line runs along what are now the eastern boundaries separating Norway, Finland, Estonia and Latvia from Russia, continues east of Lithuania, cuts in northwestern Ukraine, swings westward separating Transylvania from the rest of Romania, and then along the line now separating Slovenia, Croatia and northern Serbia from the rest of ex-Yugoslavia. In the Balkans this line coincides with the historic border between the Hungarian Kingdom (later Habsburg) and Ottoman empires, whereas in the north it marks the then eastern boundaries of Kingdom of Sweden and Teutonic Order, and the subsequent spread of Lutheran Reformation. The peoples to the west and north of the Huntington line are Protestant or Catholic; they shared most of the common experiences of Western European history – feudalism, the Renaissance, the Reformation, the Enlightenment, the French Revolution, and the Industrial Revolution.

The 1995 and 2004 enlargements arguably brought the European Union's eastern border up to the boundary between Western and Eastern Orthodox civilizations." Again, what the heck is Eastern Orthodox civilization? "Most of Europe's historically Protestant and Roman Catholic countries (with the exception of Iceland, Norway, Switzerland, Croatia, and the various European microstates) were now EU members, while most of Europe's historically Eastern Orthodox countries (with the exception of Greece and Cyprus) were outside the EU." The middle ages have long passed, the inclusion criteria in the EU does not depend on what the population believes for fuck's sake. Aside from that the article is about Eastern Europe, not the EU.

"This was, however, temporary, as the 2007 accession of Bulgaria and Romania, both predominantly Eastern Orthodox and located in Southeastern Europe, have shifted the EU's borders further east to reach the west coast of the Black Sea." Wow. So what?

First sign your comments. Second, I don't see any discussion here so your removal of that section was not warranted. I don't exactly see how the section in question is "racist" but I do see how it's important for it to remain in the article. Huntington is one of the most widely read and respected political scientists which gives his opinions more weight than virtually anything any editor may write here. JRWalko 17:17, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

This article presents Huntingtons book with hisview/definition of "civilization along religious lines" as a source and reference. Reading his article he himself seems to have recanted/changed his views and conclusions. Besides all that Western Europe and Eastern Europe aren't and never were so easily defined. Poland and Slovenia are largely Catholic, while Greece is largely Greek Orthodox yet... they seem to be on the other camp (you know what I mean). Then we have Albania, and others with large muslim populations. These are only the major examples, there are more that show that Huntington was simply wrong. Does his (recanted) view upon the matter have to appear at all? The religious point should be mentioned (a la Western Europe) but his view and his didn't somehow redefine the whole concept of Eastern Europe, simple as that. In my opinion we should remove all references to his book asap. Flamarande (talk) 11:10, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Organization of article

The article contains a very long lead section before the first section title. It needs to be divided up in a more sensible way. Also, the lead section includes a numbered list of two definitions of Eastern Europe as if they were the only ones, but if they were, the rest of the article wouldn't be needed. Someone (with more knowledge than me) needs to clean this up. 208.76.104.133 20:01, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comparasion and future improvement of this article

Hy, I have been comparing this article with the current Western Europe article and there a couple of points I want to make. Yes I'm very aware that that article isn't perfect (is anything here in Wikipedia?). but to be honest I think that it is simply better and easier to understand.

This article simply tries to do too much. It tries to present too many views which necessarly conflict with each other.

This article is in conflict with itself (see above).

This article seems to neglect a bit the vital importance of the Cold War in defining this term. Wether we like it or not, it largely defined Western and Eastern Europe till this day.

This article has some images and this is fine, but it lacks a single easy-to-understand image.

This article has too many and too large blocks of text.

This article presents Huntingtons view/definition of "civilization along religious lines". Reading his article he himself seems to have changed many of his views. Besides all that Western Europe and Eastern Europe were and aren't not so easily defined. Poland and Slovenia are largely Catholic, while Greece is largely Greek Orthodox yet... they seem to be on the other camp (you know what I mean). Then we have Albania, and others with large muslim populations. Does his (out-dated) view upon the matter even appear at all? The religious point should be mentioned (a la Western Europe) but his view didn't somehow redefine the whole concept of Eastern Europe, simple as that.

A similar point is the language view. Romanian is a Romance language (Latin). It isn't a simple matter of "Eastern" Slavic VS "Western" Germanic, Celtic, and Romance languages (where are the Basque and Greek languages? :). In the other hand this notion does exist in some views.

Having said all of this, I'm truly interrested in helping and improving this article. While I'm interrested in largely following the example of the Western Europe article, it will certainly not be a simple copy of that article. Yes, I think that some stuff will have to be deleted (hey be bold and all that) but no I'm not planning to delete everything. I'm also not interrested in any kind of revert-wars, thus I am listing all this stuff so that it can be debated in an honest and open way. Thanks Flamarande 03:30, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Original Research from the beginning to the end in the introcution

This article starts off with a long list of sweeping generalisations. No attempt is made to source weasel terms like "In common perception", "commonly associated". In fact, the whole introduction sounds not a little bit like original research. It's claimed that Western Europe as defined in the article is different from Eastern Europe by "differences of culture, politics and economis". According to whom? It seems like the ideas of some editor with a very vague idea of Europe who doesn't even try to explain his ideas.
Culture Does anybody really want to claim that Greece is culturally closer to Norway and the UK than to Bulgaria and Serbia? There are many cultural boundaries (Religion, history, language groups etc.) in Europe, virtually none of which conforms to the division proposed here. Perhaps somebody would care to explain which cultural traits that unite this so called "Eastern" Europe on one side and "Western" Europe on the other?
Politics That would have been true twenty years ago but certainly not today. Both the so called "Eastern" and "Western" Europe are both home to some very well-functioning democraties and to some less well-functioning. Twenty years ago, this would have been a question between democraties and dictatorship but what political differences are there now?
Economics This is perhaps the funniest of them all and once again reveal a severe lack of insight on behalf of the author(s). Their proposed "Eastern" Europe is home both to the most state-controlled and the most liberal economies in Europe. Neither the proposed "Western" or "Eastern" Europe have any common economic system, far from it.
Then we get even more original research, claiming that "Western Europe" is "commonly associated" with liberal democracies. I doubt anyone would call Greece a very liberal democracy while Slovenia and Estonia well could be called so. And "Capitalism"?? Give me a break, most states in the so called Eastern Europe are more capitalistic than countries such as Sweden, Norway or Finland. And then we get the funny idea that "Western Europe" is associated with the "European Union". Funny, as the "western" countries of Norway, Iceland and Switzerland aren't in the union while most "Eastern" countries are. All in all, the whole introduction is just a long orgy of original research and no actual knowledge. The real article starts with the definition by the UN, a definition that is very different from the OR proposed in the introduction, and also much more accurate. Unless some very authorotative sources are provided instead of the present OR introduction, the whole introduction should be deleted. The articles on Northern Europe, Central Europe and Southern Europe conform both to each other and to the UN definitions. As far as I remembered Western Europe and Eastern Europe also used to conform to that untill the present introductions with all their original research and lack of knowledge were added. They should be removed swiftly for many reasons, not least the poor quality, the lack of conformity with other articles and especially the fact that it's all opinions and original research. JdeJ 14:44, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm. It seems to me that you want the (nearly) impossible. The main question is: "What precisly is Eastern Europe?" The true answer is: "It is only a geopolitical idea, which lingers inside the mind of many ppl. The main influence over this idea was and still continues to be the Cold War." Your answer and opinion IMHO seems to be: "Absolutly nothing. Western Europe and Eastern Europe are undistinguishable from each other. The only thing that is valid today is the UN definition. Everything else is to be ignored and to be ridiculed." I honestly can't agree with your view upon this matter.

You seem to have completly forgotten to read the main body of the article. By far the main influence (but not only) over this term (and over the twin idea of "Western Europe") was the Cold War. The Cold War lasted from 1945 until 1989. 44 years which had a huge impact upon everything. On one side was Western Europe with Democracy (politics) and Capitalism (economics). On the other side Eastern Europe with Socialist Republics (i.e. single-party dictatorships) and Socialism (State controled economies).

Your knowledge about Greek politics seems to be quite lacking. The Regime of the Colonels ended in 1974 and modern Greek democracy is quite secure and gives all modern liberties. I suggest you read the articles about Greece and Metapolitefsi in particular.

The big (and real) problem is that this "vision" of the separation was also merged/jopined with other older notions (and ideas) which aren't 100% true and accurate. Some of them are simply wrong, others aren't 100% accurate.

In the mind of many ppl Western Europe speaks Celtic, Latin, and Germanic family languages while in Eastern Europe the Slavic languages are spoken. This isn't 100% true at all, but the notion exists and perists and yes it influences the two terms.

How about religion? Most countries in WE are Catholics or Protestants while most countries in EE are of the Christian Orthodox tradition. Again this simple view isn't 100% acurate. Poland is mainly Catholic, while Greece, which is considered the craddle of the "Democratic Western individualistic world", is Christian Orthodox.

And let us not deny another controversial influence upon these two concepts: the racial/cultural notion. On one side the Celts, Latins, Anglo-Saxons and Germanics VS the Slavs. Again not 100% accurate yet it has influence upon this matter.

Another influence is the European Union (and the EU was also influenced on its turn). Don't forget that the European Union was created during the Cold War and most of its trends, contents, and ideas reflect this. The initial countries were Western European countries.

To cut things short: All these notions (and some others) have all a certain degree of influence over the two terms. You probably don't agree with this. To avoid any kind of revert war I'm going to provide your requested sources. Flamarande 19:16, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I seriously advise you to read this: [4]. It is a discourse of Toomas Hendrik Ilves, then a minister of the Estonian goverment. I think if you read it carefully you will see that he presents the "commonly accepted vision of Eastern Europe" (and by contrast one can understand the "commonly accepted vision of Western Europe") and shows how many notions ppl have are many times mistaken; some completly ridiculous while others simply not quite acurate. But yet all these notions influence how all of us see Western and Eastern Europe.

Your user-page says that you read the "The Economist". If you still have it, please take the October 20th-26th 2007 edition and read carefully the "Baltic blues" article (page 92): "Some fear the region could be eastern Europe's Achilles heel." This refers to the Baltic states. I read the Economist too (besides some other newspapers, books, etc) and I meant this kind of use: in economic newspapers (media in general) by "comon use and perception".

On the other hand I have nothing against serious improvements of the article in general and of the entry-section in particular. I can only suggest that you use the Talk-page before you acuse someone of Original Research and weasel words. And that you improve the entry into something before you start to scream: "OR, OR, Weasel words, Weasel words, KILL, KILL, BURN, BURN. Take no prisoners!" That atitude is not very helpful at all. Debate (presenting your reservations) instead of accusing (making fun of someones knowledge upon the matter, knowledge which might be wrong or not). Please do not make fun of another user. Flamarande 16:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC) In case you haven't noticed I tend to be quite honest and quite sarcastic.

I suggest we do something about the lead ASAP because we can't have something like that up there for too long. Eastern Europe is certainly not currently a geopolitical concept. It may have been during the brief period of communism but certainly is not now. There clearly is an "Eastern" Europe and there's countries that clearly fit the bill geographically (for example Belarus). Once you start getting into geopolitical arguments and then claim there's some difference between politics and economics you get into a really gray area. For example by the current definition of the article Poland is considered Eastern European. Yes that may be what many people think but that almost entirely stems from the country being under communist control for almost half a century. There's hardly any "political" issues there, Poland had the same political system (in fact more liberal through most of history) than its western neighbors. It also was historically economically the same as them. So to draw some line at the German border is to simply further the same kind of revisionist ideas that Stalin came up with. I don't think Czechs would ever consider themselves Eastern European "politically" and "economically", they probably have nothing in common with any of the states further east in those areas. Or Hungarians for that matter, seeing as they are far closer to Austria than to Romania in virtually every aspect. The point is that the idea of Central Europe exists for a reason.

So my bone to pick is not with the existence of Eastern Europe but rather with the classification of countries as Eastern European and then claiming that they are that because of some political or economic issues. That's clearly false. JRWalko 01:12, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Correct it then, by replacing the definition/reasons (why all these coutries are considered part of Eastern Europe) with something more accurate. Perhaps history, language, and culture? But don't forget that the Cold War still is the largest influence over "Eastern Europe" as a whole. Don't be fooled: Poland, the Check Republic, and Hungary (and all the others) are overwhelmingly considered part of Eastern Europe by the English-speaking world. Just pick up a serious newspaper (like the Economist) and read a couple of articles about these countries; the notion that they are a part of Eastern Europe will appear for sure. Let us not even speak of popular newspapers which sometimes present an absolutly wretched (and wrong) vision of Eastern Europe...reminds alot of Borat, a good comedy which showed how many of these ideas are simply stupid and even funny sometimes. And yes I know that Borat was over Kazakhstan and not over Poland, Hungary, etc.

While the term "Central Europe" is slowly appearing here and there, it simply is still widely under-used these days, creating the problem that while the citizens of some countries may consider themselves part of a Central Europe (noone wants to be part of Eastern Europe these days) this isn't considered as such by the majority of ppl from other countries. Probably this will change with the passing of time but until then...

A basic problem is that some ideas/notions (of "Western Europe", "Central Europe", and "Eastern Europe") simply don't agree with each other. There are some who consider Germany part of a Central Europe while others (these days the overwhelming majority) consider it part of Western Europe. As they are speaking of an idea (which is hard to use as definitions are applied/accepted or not, and many times apllied but never 100%) both of them' might even be right. These ideas/vision/realities/definitions many times change with the passing of time.

To cut it short. You shouldn't try to change all the three articles to such a point that all the three agree 100% with each other. While I didn't work on it I quite agree with the article Central Europe, particularly with: "The understanding of the concept of Central Europe varies considerably from nation to nation, and also has from time to time.". However the notion and definition of Western Europe and Eastern Europe are way more secure, again due to the Cold War. Flamarande 14:04, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

OECD member states (as of 2007)

Religious split in Europe      Roman Catholicism      Orthodox Christianity      Protestantism      Sunni Islam      Shia Islam      Judaism

     High human development     Medium human development     Low human development     Unavailable(colour-blind compliant map) The majority of the green-colored countries constitutes the current First World.

Why would you think that 45 years of the Cold War should determine where a country is placed? My point is that those countries being in Eastern Europe is not the norm. In fact it is a historical abnormality. Look at the articles for Austria, Germany, Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary, all those countries are said to be in Central Europe both now and historically. These countries have far more in common with each other geographically, economically, and politically, than they ever have had with any of their eastern neighbors. So to simply lump some of them into one category is unfair especially given the fact that East Germany has somehow been excluded from this.

Look at these lines of division, they are political and economic, they clearly conflict with the current definition in this article. When Brits talk about some of these countries they probably do in fact consider them Eastern European but Americans on the other hand talk about building missile defenses in Central Europe. Reuters, also a British company also uses the "Central" scheme. All in all the lead can't make sweeping generalizations as to who is where. It needs to be general and point to the specific historical concepts of the term that are found in the body of the article. JRWalko 14:42, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

So in your opinion we should simply pretend that the Cold War never happened, and simply deny and ignore the huge impact the 45 years had upon everything? It isn't a matter of fair or unfair, it is a matter of accuracy and facts. Eastern Germany wasn't excluded; it simply ceased to exist! It was absorbed by Western Germany. I took a look at the articles you mentioned and the article of Germany quite correctly says that Germany is part of Western and of Central Europe. The same goes to Poland. The other articles are as you claim (noone wants to be a part of Eastern Europe these days :).

As for the maps you presented: the OCDE map only shows which countries are members of the OCDE, nothing more, nothing less. The Religion map shows that religion shouldn't be used at all. The Human development map is honestly quite puzzleing, the criteria is unclear, and a map which gives equal status to Germany and Romania (just an example of the obvious) is a bit dubious. As for Huntington's map I will only say that he himself recanted his views (at least according to his article).

Still I'm always open for genuine improvements. You can (and probably should) include in the entry that some of the listed countries are also considered part of Central Europea (please don't remove any of them). Perhaps behind the countries in question? Flamarande 21:51, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Well I used the maps to argue that there is no political or economic basis for a claim that Eastern Europe is defined in those terms. OECD and HDI maps demonstrate the far higher economic development of some of the states. The economic argument is entirely void for the last 1000 years with the exception of the 45 years of communism (even then Central Europe was FAR more liberal than other communist countries). Same can be said of politics (as religion has been the chief determinant of conflict in European history). So yes, the Warsaw Pact obviously happened but it no longer exists and this article should reflect this. The Central European countries that I'm arguing about only became Eastern European as a result of the Warsaw Pact. My issue with this was that as East Germany was in the Warsaw Pact one could argue that Germany now is partly Eastern European. Now clearly that's not the case and I simply want that reasoning to be extended to the other countries that had identical history of both political and economic development as their western neighbors.

To me this is not an issue of those countries not wanting to be Eastern European, it's that those countries don't wish to be called something they are not. Anyway, not to make this too long but I propose similarly that we denote that in geopolitical terms some of those countries have only been Eastern European briefly. I just think it's a little strange to say that Czech Republic has been considered Central European since the 800s and suddenly become Eastern European having nothing in common with the other members of that grouping other than some basic lingual roots and 45 years of communism.

So, my proposal: Eastern Europe is a geopolitical concept....as it is now. It includes these countries....all the countries that indisputably are considered E.European. And then something along the lines of "these Central European countries are sometimes considered E.European as a result of their membership in the Warsaw Pact but are not part of the current geopolitical concept of E. Europe." something like that and obviously open to revisions. What do you think? JRWalko 02:16, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok I hope you agree a little bit more with the present form of the article (to be honest yesterday I was simply way too tired). I honestly think the explainations are quite fair and also accurate (the 2nd is a must). Many countries of the region are simply considered part of CE and/or of EE at the same time. It largely depends upon the POV of the source in particular. If you see something which should be further improved please let me know. Flamarande 20:34, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm really leaning towards reverting to the 2006 and early 2007 version of the definition. The issue here is that this article can't just offer the Western Europe POV on this issue. As the whole concept of what this article says is Eastern Europe was German to begin with there's clearly a POV issue here. The article needs to show the two definitions of this term. The first one is that which was used for hundreds of years (Central Europe exists, Europe is split along religious, economic, political lines) and the second one is that which is often used today but only came about as a result of the Warsaw Pact. An Encyclopedia is meant to educate and not reinforce a faulty understanding of the concept. Central European counties need to be clearly separated because they only fall into this category in that one definition. You can't have the lead establishing one definition and then the article stating that it's only sometimes true. When I find some time I'll write a proposal. JRWalko 02:00, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I honestly don't understand what you mean with: "the whole concept of what this article says is Eastern Europe was German to begin with there's clearly a POV issue here". I looked but couldn't find a statement of: Eastern Europe was at the beginning German(ic) (or something similar). But I might be forgetting or not seeing something. As for giving another definition for Eastern Europe (the older definition before 1945) I'm just going to say that I'm going to wait (for your proposal) and see. Perhaps the article can present both definitons. But don't forget that "Central Europe" includes countries from both current Western Europe and Eastern Europe (we shouldn't simply remove the coutries from both articles). In the end if the improvements are genuine and fair I will not oppose them. Flamarande 12:15, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I was referring to the historical habit of the German empire to refer to the Russian empire as encompassing Eastern Europe (Russia historically made the concept inclusive in order to increase its sphere of influence whereas Germany made it exclusive in order to demonstrate how Russia was a threatening state). I wasn't exactly right to say it was German to begin with but it was largely popularized in that era and simply carried on into modern times. Anyway, I didn't notice your modifications to the lead earlier, they're very good. Please don't get me wrong, Eastern Europe is most definitely a geopolitical concept these days but that idea doesn't include Central Europe. Eastern Europe that includes Central European countries is only a Cold War era definition. To quote the a book on this (cited in Mitteleuropa)"And what about the Czech Republic and Slovakia? Under every regime they appeared in atlases on maps of Central Europe. However, during the Cold War geopolitics placed Czechoslovakia in the East. It happened in spite of the fact that Prague is to the west of Vienna, Athens and Istanbul, which belonged to the West. Thus, Cold War Western Europe was more Atlantic than European." Prussia was also not an Eastern European state despite occupying regions even to the east of Central Europe. I'm also short on time so I don't know when I'll be able to get to writing something good with citations but hopefully it will be soon. JRWalko 22:00, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edits by Miyokan

The document which you have removed CLEARLY STATED that a revision to the UN definition is due. An excerpt says: "The subdivision of Europe into larger cultural regions to be advertised by this paper starts from a notion of Central Europe, since a geographical notion of Central Europe has early developed, was intensively discussed in the 19th and 20th centuries up to Europe’s partition into two antagonistic political blocs, and enjoys a certain renaissance thereafter." READ THE ACTUAL SOURCE. This comes from the UN GROUP OF EXPERTS on geographical names. How are you gonna dispute this?

Secondly the UN is ONE source. The CIA Factbook again CLEARLY states that these states are in Central Europe. There's thousands of works that don't place these countries in Eastern Europe and nevertheless I left them there WITH A NOTE because of Cold War influence over recent texts.

Thirdly, it was very nice of you to denounce my SOURCED version as that of a "Pole wanting to exclude Poland from Eastern Europe". How professional - especially coming from a Russian editor editing primarily on Russian matters. You've clearly shown your opinion here. Those Poles, they just keep revising our good old Soviet history.

Even though I repeatedly suggested discussing this you have not done that. My version didn't include anything revolutionary. I left those countries under the definition and attached a note and source to each to clarify the concepts at hand and maintain a correct definition that didn't contradict with other definitions.

There are MANY definitions of this concept over a wide historical period and this article must reflect that. JRWalko (talk) 03:53, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there is a Central Europe. Nihil novi (talk) 04:43, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

The document which you have removed CLEARLY STATED that a revision to the UN definition is due. An excerpt says: "The subdivision of Europe into larger cultural regions to be advertised by this paper starts from a notion of Central Europe, since a geographical notion of Central Europe has early developed, was intensively discussed in the 19th and 20th centuries up to Europe’s partition into two antagonistic political blocs, and enjoys a certain renaissance thereafter." READ THE ACTUAL SOURCE. This comes from the UN GROUP OF EXPERTS on geographical names. How are you gonna dispute this?

Of course I read the source, which is why I removed the misrepresenting paragraph.

Here is what you wrote before:

"In 1996 the UN Group of Experts on Geographical Names suggested a revision of this definition to exclude from it Central European countries that didn't satisfy its definition of Eastern Europe which was described: "in the cultural sense coincides with this part of Europe under Byzantine and Orthodox influence, which has only randomly been touched by an Ottoman impact, but significantly been shaped by Russian influence during the Russian Empire (from the middle of the 16th century up to 1917) and in the Soviet period (1917-1992)."

Nowhere in the article does it say they are "suggesting a revision of this definition to exclude from it Central European countries that didn't satisfy its definition of Eastern Europe which was described". Point to me exactly where they are saying that they are thinking of revis