Talk:Druze

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[edit] Isma'ili Muslim?

Do Druze consider themselves an offshoot of Islam or not, and are Druze still part of the Isma'ili branch of Shi'ism since they have been labeled as such, so Input would be welcome for both editors at the Isma'ili page and everyone here. Thoughts? (Water Stirs (talk) 18:45, 26 October 2008 (UTC))

It is completely and utterly controversial. To put it simply, the Aga Khan III called them Ismaili, sometimes I think even they accept the designation, but some Druze don't. It's a complex issue because of years of persecution. --Enzuru 04:14, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

The Druze followed the mainstream of the Ismaili by accepting the Fatimid Imaamate. (Those who rejected it were the Qarmatians.) Since they follow Hakim as Imam of the Time, they split off right before the Taiyyibi, Musta'li and other subgroupings of Ismailism. They are therefore part of the Ismaili proper. Druze identity is a little unclear, because they believe Hakim taught them secret teachings - the esoteric of the esoteric - and therefore they don't talk about themselves publicly. However...

Recently, several Risaa'il - the secret Druze theological books - have been published with the permission of the Druze 3uqqaal and their theological leader. We also have letters of theological battle between the 3uqqaal and the 3alawiyy shuyuukh, each accusing the other of hæresy and laying down the reasons why. Therefore, while the Druze themselves avoid answering questions directly, their various texts tell a story of a people who clearly accept the Ismaili lineage through Hakim. ناهد/(Nåhed) _speak! 04:54, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

- Well I agree with Nahed and Enzuru actually after the fall of the Fatmid Caliphate Druzism became somehow isolated because the majority of Ismailis were either forced to convert or killed by Saladin and his successors, the Druze were spared because their leaders had good relations with Saladin.

During the 16th century the most important non-Fatimid Druze theologian Amir Said Tanukhi tried to preserve the Druze doctrine because most of the Ismaili books were burned or lost and it was hard for many Druze to understand some aspects of the faith, Amir Said studied the Sunni doctrine for 12 years in Damascus and incorporated some teachings and laws from the Sunni school of thought it wasn't actually Taqiyya but it was more related to the survival of the Druze doctrine, though he respected and was influenced by some Sunni theologians but still he harshly criticized the ideas that are not compatible with the Druze faith.

- About if they associate themselves with Ismaelism well from what I know and I'm not sure of this but I heard that an Ismaeli living in a Druze village in Lebanon was admitted to the Druze religious meetings that are held on Thursdays and are only exclusive to Druze also many Druze scholars wrote books concerning the Fatimids and are pretty much proud of their heritage.

And Nahed you are right concerning the 3alawiyy and Druze debate in a certain epistle, but many scholars misunderstood this epistle since its clear that a 3alawi person fabricated an Epistle that contained immoral teachings and linked it to Hamza and Hakim in the aim to defame the movement so Hamza replied to him as the 3allawi or Nusayri since the two communities lived in the same region and were competing for converts. So the Epistle wasn't related to the 3alawi faith but to the fabricated epistle actually there is another epistle that was believed to be a 3allawi document while it was written by a Druze criticizing the belief that humans can be punished by being reborn as animals or the aspect of “Tanasukh”.

Though there is some other epistles criticising some aspects of Gnosticism in the same manner Plotinus did and probably that has something to do with the 3alawiyy doctrine.

-And since Enzuru and Nahed have much deeper knowledge concerning this topic I would like to know if the info in the Article concerning Numerology, Qiyamah and Adamic religion is Orthodox Ismaili or is it taken from a Druze source ??? Since I don’t have access to the cited reference … « Hiram111^{ΔTalK Δ} 19:52, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

I believe this is a Sevener source, from what I understand, presently Nizari do not give the number seven as much significance. I may be incorrect though. --Enzuru 22:39, 7 November 2008 (UTC)