Talk:Cult film

	Cult film is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.
Article milestones Date Process Result January 5, 2006 Good article reassessment Delisted January 22, 2006 Featured article candidate Not promoted Current Status: Former featured article candidate

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Archives

Archive 1

[edit] References and POV concern

I flagged the film list on this article as unreferenced because there are currently no citations in that section verifying that the specific films in that list meet a consensus definition of having cult status. At best these films might appear in a list of cult films on one of the external links at the end of the article. Note though that even if a citation to a specific source is provided indicating that something is a cult film, that still leaves open point of view concerns on whether or not a specific film is "cult". It is certainly possible that a film is listed as "cult" on one critic's list, for example, but other critics do not consider it a "cult" film.

The bottom line, though, is that the list included in this article has no footnotes or citations indicating it is drawn from external, verifiable published sources. Dugwiki 20:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

FYI, I reinserted this tag as it was removed without comment or correction. Please do not remove the unref tag until references are provided to verify that the listed films are generally considered "cult films" by the film industry. Dugwiki 22:25, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I once again had to reinsert the unreferenced tag that was removed without comment and without additional references being added to the article to very the list of films has consensus in the industry as being "cult films". Since the situation hasn't improved, and I don't like the idea of having to keep reinserting this tag, I posted asking for feedback on this section of the article at WP:Films. Eventually what needs to happen is either a) references are added to verify the films have consensus in the industry as having cult status, or b) the section should be deleted as something that is subjective and unreferenced (ie cult status is in the eye of the beholder adding it to the list). I'd recommend giving feedback and comments at that talk page so the discussion remains in one place. Thanks! Dugwiki 16:47, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Can someone help with citations on the list of cult films? I know a back issue of entertainment weekly had a list of the top 100 cult films of all time, there is also a large book called "Cult FLicks and Trash Pics" that I've read but do not have. This book is an encyclopedia of hundreds of cult films. If someone could track these down and use them for citation that would be great. Most of the films, actors, and directors that were on the lists removed from the article are in there DASA2 2:08, 13 February 2007

That's certainly a step in the right direction. However, keep in mind that in addition to the reference problem there was the issue of subjectivity. "Cult FLicks and Trash Pics" could simply be one particular author's subjective opinion on what films he feels should be considered cult films. In addition, as a more minor technical note, you have to be a little careful posting published lists because they might be copyrighted.

My best current suggestion for the moment is, if you want, to maintain the previously deleted lists on your user page instead of in the article space. That way you can add or remove films as desired without having to worry as much about objectivity. Then put a link to your user page here on the talk page so other interested editors can add to it as well. Later, down the road, if the POV and reference issues can be addressed, then you can maybe try and recreate the material in article space. Dugwiki 17:34, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, my two cents - the lists should just be removed completely. Maybe eventually one simple list of commonly recognized cult films that fit the more specific definition this article needs could be added. Mondo68 06:32, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed lists of cult films, cult actors and cult directors per afd consensus

Per the afd discussions at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of cult films and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of cult film actors, I have removed the recently recreated lists for cult films, cult actors and cult directors. Those lists are unverifiable original research and have inherent subjectivity issues (they are basically lists based almost solely on individual editors' opinions on what and who has "cult" status). Please do not recreate or revert those lists without discussing here, and the consensus appeared strong on afd that the lists were inappropriate for Wikipedia inclusion. Thanks. Dugwiki 16:36, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

By cleaning up this article and making more straightforward, fact-based, with verifiable sources, creating good cult film, cult actor, and cult director lists will be easier. But first things first, this whole thing needs to be revised Mondo68 06:27, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citations and defining cult film

I have a large collection of books and magazines on the subject of cult movies and would be glad to help provide a more well-defined definition of "cult film" for this article. Mondo68 07:18, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Problem of the Rocky Horror Precedent

I think a lot of the misconceptions about what "cult film" is derives from the precedent set by the Rocky Horror Picture Show. Because it has long beeen held up as a kind of prototypical example of cult, many have assumed that what made it cult was the fact that it attracted an obsessed, participatory audience. Based on that precedent, people have concluded that Star Wars is a cult film. Another aspect of RHPS that a lot of people have latched on to is the repeated viewings. Of course, in the days when RHPS was building its reputation as a cult film, repeated viewings took a lot more effort and dedication than they do today. Tarantino fanboys watch Pulp Fiction over and over, sometimes in groups, and quote lines of dialogue to each other. Because of the similarity of that behavoir to the RHPS precedent, Pulp Fiction is often mis-labeled a cult movie. I would contend that RHPS was an entirely unique phenomenon in the cult movie culture. It made its own rules, and is not especially representative of cult movies as a whole.

To me, a cult movie fan was someone who was first and foremost an avid film fanatic who searched for new and unique cinematic experiences and in the process would champion little known and underapreciated films, not watch the same handful of popular (or even semi-popular) movies over and over again.

Any thoughts?

Mondo68 08:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your assessment of how Rocky Horror Picture Show has often led to the misuse of the term cult film, leading people to believe that it merely means a fanatical devotion and involvement. Pulp Fiction, Star Wars, etc. shouldn't be classified as cult films. The OED defines "cult" as "fringe, non-mainstream" and having "appeal to a relatively small audience". (I have pasted the full definition at the bottom of this discussion page.) Ironically, (IMHO) RHPS long ago lost its status as a cult film once its following became so large. Proclivities (talk) 20:51, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] In Need of a TOTAL Re-Do

I would like to start REALLY cleaning up this article. Straightforward, fact-based, with references and verifiable sources.

Mondo68 06:38, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Most of the article appears to be pretty well written, although I have had to occasionally redelete the "lists of cult actors/directors/films" that were previously removed as being too subjective (the lists are unreferenced and very much a matter of editorial opinion). Most recently they appear to have been readded by an unregistered editor. Dugwiki 20:43, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the lists should be removed.

I think the article could be much better. It kind of rambles from point to point and doesn't feel cohesive. Also there are many subjective comments and little (no?) attribution.

Mondo68 03:30, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I could not concur more completely. This article should be dismantled and rebuilt from the ground up. It is a personal, subjective, idiosyncratic, and largely ill-informed POV of what "cult" means as applied to film. Check out the OED definition below - "fringe, non-mainstream." That dictionary is the best and most general arbiter of definition in English, and by its dicta nearly none of this article is relevant to the proper use of "cult" by real film devotees, critics, and historians. Night of the Living Dead and Reefer Madness? Most certainly. But major studio releases by directors like Kubrick, Ridley Scott, Speilberg and others mentioned as cult???? 2001, Blade Runner, A Clockwork Orange - these were major studio productions, major releases, much discussed at the times of their releases and ever since, and seen by tens of millions over the years. You just can't stretch the word "cult" in ANY definition to fit about 70% of what is in this article. Add to that the wretched writing noted below and you have a perfect example of why no one past high school age (unfortunately) can take Wikipedia seriously. It is just distressing to read this.Sensei48 (talk) 05:15, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

And where did the editor author get the idea that the term was invented (or anything other than simply employed) by Danny Peary around 1980? The term was in common usage when I was coming of age as a student of film in the 1960s, and I have books on film from the 1940s that use it extensively. Further, a quick look at Peary's nominations for films with cult status reaffirms what I said above - there are virtually no A level major studio releases among his initial examples.Sensei48 (talk) 13:22, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

'Pretty well written'? This is possibly the worst article I've read on Wikipedia, on writing quality alone. It not just rambles - all over - but repeats itself (in the introduction, in various other parts), sometimes contradicts itself ("A cult film can often been widely regarded and had been successful upon its early release") and is full of vague generalizations/hand-waving. It needs to be redone for sure, at least the intro and the general overview. -76.172.41.63 21:52, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Rocky Horror Picture Show Cover.jpg

Image:Rocky Horror Picture Show Cover.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 04:35, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Replaced now deleted image with Image:The Rocky Horror Picture Show.jpg. No big deal; took seconds to find replacement. HairyWombat 23:48, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Repetitive

This article is a bit too repetitive. It mentions obsessive followings and initial movie failure a bout 3 times in the first 15 lines. ArdClose (talk) 00:00, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Depending on Definition

The main aspect which defines a cult film, to me, is its relative obscurity, as if it were some sort of secret which only a small group of devotees knew about. It is not always that the films failed financially or were just poorly made, sometimes it is issues of distribution. And Soon the Darkness or the original version of The Wicker Man are examples of cult films, or even midnight movies, that were just never widely distributed, but developed followings after videos and DVD's became available.
I have pasted one definition of cult from the Oxford English Dictionary below:

Designating cultural phenomena with a strong, often enduring appeal to a relatively small audience; (also) designating this appeal or audience, or any resultant success; fringe, non-mainstream. Hence: possessing a fashionable or exclusive cachet; spec. (of artistic figures or works) having a reputation or influence disproportionate to their limited public exposure or commercial success. Freq. in cult figure, cult status.

I think that this definition can help clear up what determines whether a particular film a cult film or not. However, as this heading suggests, it still depends on what one's definition is. "The Nightmare Before Christmas" or "Dr. Strangelove" may have cult followings, but IMHO, I do not consider them "cult films", mainly because there appeal is not limited "to a relatively small audience". Proclivities (talk) 21:02, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Nowirehangers.jpg

Image:Nowirehangers.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 16:12, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] picture Camping Cosmos - belgian cult movie

Why was this image removed, without warning and without mention in "history"?Karel leermans (talk) 17:24, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:DonnieDarkoStill.jpg

The image Image:DonnieDarkoStill.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

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[edit] What?

"Another example is the place of The Wizard of Oz (1939) in white American homosexual culture, although a widely viewed and historically important film in greater American culture."

Anybody have a source? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.152.32.92 (talk) 22:30, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] are links forbidden to be added?

I'm trying to add www.cultreviews.com to the external links section, but apparantly it gets undone every time. Is there anything I'm missing about links? A site that covers Cult Movies is pretty relevant I thought. 81.83.108.30 (talk) 19:02, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Where is Repo Man?

Perhaps the greatest cult film of all time, this movie needs to be mentioned somewhere on this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.255.150.131 (talk) 07:53, 2 November 2008 (UTC)