Talk:Communism

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To-do list for Communism: edit · history · watch · refresh

This essay was clearly vandalized. Can it be protected from future attempts to destroy the content people worked so hard to assemble?

  • Include relevant (and pertinent) images
  • Communism as an ideology outside of Marxism (subpages?)
  • Total rewrite? (due to organization)
  • Aim for FA status eventually
  • Communism in China before 1949:
    • Left-wing KMT
    • non-CPC communists
  • Short intro paragraph with a brief explanation of Communism, like most articles have.
  • Regroup titles?- better organization
  • A more transparent examination of the criticism of communism and its effects.
  • Removal of the Leninist Symbol on top of the page, it simply not reflect the true comunnist ideal and it is just a variant of it.
  • Clarify terminology used throughout the article
  • It is important not to be biased in discussion of Communism! The communists thought what they were doing was right

Contents

[edit] Typo?

In "Communism is the idea of a free society with no division or alienation, where humananity is free from oppression and scarcity. A communist society would have no governments, countries, or class divisions."

Is "humananity" supposed to be "humanity"? I have no idea what humananity is supposed to mean. Please clarify.

[edit] Citation necessary?

Why is citation needed on: "It is usually considered a branch of the broader socialist movement that draws on the various political and intellectual movements that trace their origins back to the work of Karl Marx", when this is common knowledge? Why is no citation called for further down when specific statements are made regarding Marx's influence on later ideas? 24.72.117.131 (talk) 05:04, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

We editors fall back too much on "common knowledge" sometimes. Common knowledge for who? Kids born in 1985 who never knew anything about the USSR? Those "kids" are 23 years old. Why is someone reading this? Because they know all about it and want to see if we got it right? How about this: they know next to nothing about Communism and are trying to learn?
Footnotes means that (if they are doing research) they can use the same reference. It also means (if they are knowledgeable about Wikipedia), that the editor is not making this up. There are too many articles with few references. Sometimes when the issue is forced, the statement made so blatantly "goes away." While wikipedia is often not allowed as a primary source (nor are most encyclopedias), they are considered a good source for references.
Anyway, there are other roots for communism besides Karl Marx. The French had a commune back when, didn't they? Maybe Marx took his ideas from them. I, for one, would like to see a scholarly citation that indicates that Marx is the sole root of all Communism. If this is so obvious, it ought to be real easy to come up with a reference. Student7 (talk) 12:39, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

i'm agree with 24.72... it's common knowledge. also if there is some trouble with pre marx communism, but the pre marx communist aren't common knowledge. --Francomemoria (talk) 00:59, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

You could be right, of course. Maybe I can learn something. Can you tell me where in WP:FOOT or perhaps another standard, where "common knowledge," as reason to skip footnotes, is cited? Thank you. Student7 (talk) 01:31, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
all phrases need a footnotes with your thinking--Francomemoria (talk) 12:57, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
What I tell newbies ('cause I can get away with it  :), it that "2 plus 2 doesn't equal 4 in Wikipedia unless they can find a reference to it." It helps avoid top of the head syndrome which plagues us all. Having said that, I have been known to put in "obvious" stuff myself without a footnote....until some bright-eyed editor notices and zings me!  :) Student7 (talk) 19:06, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


I'm going to try and make this as short as possible, but it is difficult in squeezing this in as someone with a Masters in political science really likes to speak.

Communism is the evolved form of Marxism and on the political wing the more "intense" version of a Socialist government. It is safe to say that Karl Marx is indeed solely the founder of Communism; this is because he founded its modern principles. Any Socialist or Communist-like style of government before his time was a very loose principle of some sort of economically balanced society. This is similar to the fact that before modern Capitalism, ancient Italian merchants had similar economic ideals, although they were VERY different and more loose then what modern Capitalism is today.

In regards to the article itself,

I believe it does indeed need an entire rewrite. Not only is lacking citations and footnotes to backup its claims and statements, (many statements are true, many are not and unbiased) but it is too "loosely written" and needs major reorganization in the establishment of the ideology of this type of government.

This English article is a major shame to many other of its version in different languages. For example the German article of Communism is a major success in amplifying its system and precursor Marxist ideologies. The main reason is because the current generations of Americans have been taught very little about this style of government which has inarguably plummeted knowledge on such a thing because of the current political status of the time. I would vote in favor of a rewrite. This article should strive to be at least of the same quality as the capitalism article.

Also I find it strange for an article to begin with some very strange quote commenting on this government type.

MrBosnia (talk) 02:45, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. There are a lot of non-Marxist versions of communism that don't get much mention here. Marx wasn't the first to advocate collective ownership, and production and distribution, but (in my opinion and correct me if you think I'm wrong) there is not doubt that his outlook was unique and cannot sufficiently account for all "communisms". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sprachwissenschaftler (talk • contribs) 21:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Remove "Background" Section

Could someone please remove the dubious "background" section? It's vague and poorly stated; and there are no sources. -Rich —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.239.48.188 (talk) 04:12, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I find this sentence to be rather poorly written:
Though centrally planned economies are said to be less efficient than free markets[attribution needed], communist states such as Soviet Union and China did succeed in becoming industrial and technological powers, challenging the capitalists' powers in the arms race and space race and military conflicts.
"Free-market" is a rather ambiguous term to use. To a libertarian, it means no state intervention at all, whilst a state-capitalist considers a heavily regulated market (such as the US has now) to be a "Free-market". Marxist and new left tend to consider anything that isn't centrally planned to be "Free-market", which is the POV of this quoted sentence. I personally think it'd be correct to specify state-capitalism in place of capitalists' powers and mixed-market in place of free markets
Also, shouldn't in the arms race and space race and military conflicts. be restructured?
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Zaphar (talk • contribs) 04:15, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree the "centrally planned economies are said to be less efficient" needs footnoting. This sounds top of the head. Even democracies have gone to central planning in time of war. They are not inherently less efficient, they just become detached from reality after a while. The Soviet Union often met 5-year quotas. It's just nobody wanted the stuff they made. It was either obsolescent or did not keep up with people's expectations as to quality. A capitalist system does this "automatically" but results in job displacement which the communists were trying to avoid.
Through central planning, the USSR did put its best trained engineers and managers on arms and space. Space turned out poorly for them, I think. They did better at arms. "Technologically" seems a stretch. How technologically? They weren't any better at military conflicts than anyone else. Historically they have been worse during the fight for Poland at the start of WWII. Supposedly they don't fight well off their own land. Certainly no better in Afghanistan than the US in Vietnam. So the "military conflicts" thing is dubious I think. Student7 (talk) 12:26, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Plato

is write "In his 4th century BCE The Republic, Plato considers the idea of the ruling class sharing property" but the communism is "a classless, stateless social organization based on common ownership of the means of production". So the Plato ideas is not near communism idea, there are classes, state and there isn't common ownership of the means of production. There is only sharing property of ruling class, anf for true i remember that he writed there is none property for ruling class. So i think is best deleted Plato ideas from this article --Francomemoria 00:31, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Plato most definitely wasn't any sort of communist. So I have no problem removing all references to the proto-fascist bastard who wanted to systematically lie to the population and also remove art from his "Republic".AFA (Fuck you!) 16:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I also agree. --Duncan 23:01, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
The article does not attempt to portray Plato as a communist, nor does it attempt to depict his ideas as equivalent to modern communism. The reference to Plato's idea of communal property should remain because it is relevant to the origins of the central doctrine of modern communism. If the reference to Plato were to be removed, we would also have to remove the references to Thomas More and Jean-Jacques Rousseau who, although not communists, made significant contributions to communist theory like Plato. -- WGee 20:27, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
if this is true, and i not think so, give reference of this --Francomemoria 23:12, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Two references are already provided for you in the article:
  • "Communism." Dictionary of the Social Sciences. Craig Calhoun, ed. Oxford University Press 2002. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press.
  • Angela Hobbs, "Plato." The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Politics. Ed. Iain McLean and Alistair McMillan. Oxford University Press, 2003. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press.
-- WGee 00:46, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
i need many time for find this books in some library but i'm sure this is a position have not many fans in communists thought, only who don't knowing communist idea can write him Republica as reference. in MIA only reference for Plato is " Disciple of Socrates, objective idealist, fought against the materialist teachings of his time. Plato developed the theory of existence of immaterial forms of objects which he called "forms" (or "ideas"). To Plato, the sensible world is the product of these "forms", which are eternal, while sensible objects are transient and changeable" --Francomemoria 12:06, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
If you are having trouble finding the aforementioned sources, the Columbia Encyclopedia, the Encyclopedia of Russian History, and the Legal Encyclopedia also refer to Plato in their discussions of the origins of communism. They are viewable online here. -- WGee 02:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Columbia write "Plato, in his Republic, outlined a society with communal holding of property; his concept of a hierarchical social system including slavery has by some been called “aristocratic communism.”" but the write false in "outlined a society with communal holding of property" there isn't this in The Republic, so this source is not serious.
Russian write "The term has been applied to premodern social and political constructs, such as communal societies propounded in Plato's Republic" a few, not motivations for this.
Legal write "As early as the fourth century b.c., Plato addressed the problems surrounding private ownership of property in the Republic" they have a bad lecture of The Republica, Plato not addressed the problems of private ownership but only of "Guardian" ownership.--Francomemoria 10:26, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Let us not digress. This article says that "Plato considers the idea of the ruling class sharing property." All of the sources just provided for you (as well as the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy [1]) verify this statement. There is nothing more to discuss unless you have some reliable sources that contradict these ones. -- WGee 01:30, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
yes the article says that but also that there are connections fra Plato and Communism, the communism is for all members of society (and in Utopia is so) not for a little. the point is the Plato idea is not related with communis idea not that sharing pownership of guardians classes--Francomemoria 12:02, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
There is no question that Plato's communism bears very little relation, if any, to Marxist communism. But Plato is often called communist by writers, which should be the standard for the encyclopedia, no? - Jemmy Button 23:44, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
What is missing from the above discussion is that Plato also described his Republic as appointing a dictator for life, with the title of 'tyrant'. The Tyrant was to have absolute power. This, in conjunction with the communal holding of property, starts to look very much like Stalin's USSR. Thus I feel it is relevant to the far-lefts 'Communism' but not to Marx's 'communism'. Again I suggest two separate pages for communism. kimdino (talk) 14:39, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] More, Utopia and Communism

The article suggests that communism has origins in More's Utopia. I don't think that quite stands up. Communism is discussed in Utopia with reference to the Utopian system, i.e. it was an established and understood concept at the time of writing. Epeeist smudge 10:04, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

This is a bit of a non sequitur. When any term is first discussed in print, then it is at that moment established in print. That does not mean that it is not the original instance of it. The term communism doesn't appear as far as I recall in the book, but it clearly is the first exposition of communism, and an excellent one at that. --Duncan 23:00, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Clearly the first? I seriously doubt that. For example, monasteries practiced communism for many centuries before More--surely someone wrote about it. (Right? shrug). I'd be hesitant every to call anything the first statement of something, seeing as I haven't read anywhere near everything. -Jemmy Button 23:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

The article suggests that communism has origins in More's Utopia. I don't think that quite stands up. Communism is discussed in Utopia with reference to the Utopian system, i.e. it was an established and understood concept at the time of writing. General Neelie —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.226.57.22 (talk) 22:45, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

This is a circular argument: using it there can be no first use of a term in print because, for the term to be used, it must already exist. That's a simple logical fallacy. There is no earlier reference to the use of the term communism. If you have one, then let's use it. --Duncan (talk) 14:32, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Comparing "Communism" to "communism"

Perhaps a better title for this section? Like "entomology of" or "application of term"? This title just seems a poor choice. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 143.88.168.68 (talk) 06:39, 30 April 2007 (UTC).


[edit] Marxism-Leninism/Trotskyism

The article currently says: "During Trotsky's exile, world communism fractured into two distinct branches: Marxism-Leninism and Trotskyism. Trotsky later founded the Fourth International, a Trotskyist rival to the Comintern, in 1938." This is problematic, as Trotskyists consider themselves to be Marxist-Leninists. Can someone think of a better way of re-wording. How about something like "fractured between the official Communism of the Comintern and the Trotskyist current that formed the Fourth International in 1938." That's too cumbersome, but the current wording is unsatisfactory. BobFromBrockley 12:17, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Technically, aren't "Marxist-Leninists" Maoists? Stalinists are either Stalinists or simple Leninists, usually.--Red Deathy 12:39, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
No, thats incorrect. All major streams stemming from the main communist tradition, with the exception of Eurocommunist sectors, considers themselves as Marxist-Leninist. Trotskyists generally avoid the term ML, initially at least preferring the term Bolshevism-Leninism. --14:33, 4 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Soman (talk • contribs)
trotskysts most use the term leninism, never ml --Francomemoria 17:03, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Agree, Trotskyists tend not to use the term M-L, but do consider themselves Marxists and Leninists. Would they actually reject the name Marxist-Leninist? BobFromBrockley 15:16, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm a Marxist-Leninists and I do not consider myself a Stalinist, I don't understand why Stalinism is replacing Leninism. I follow Marx and Lenin not Trotsky or Stalin. I Don't give two shits as to who first used the term. I think its just a slur to call us Marxist-Leninist stalinists. No Communist Party in the world classifies themselves as Stalinist. They call themselves Marxist-Leninists and I didn't see any pictures of Stalin in any of the public debates or videos of Communist Parties, I see Lenin though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.36.114.155 (talk) 17:36, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Trotskyists don't consider themselves to be Marxist-Leninists: just look for references! Marxists, yes. Leninists, yes, but Marxism-Leninism was coined to mean the mainstream Communist Parties and those emerged from them after the second world war. Eurocommunism often avoided speaking of Lenin but, politically, it is in the Marxist-Leninist tradition. --Duncan 16:22, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the terms Stalinism and Trotskyism would be more accurate? Stalin's apologists don't much like the word, but Marxism-Leninism wasn't a term used until the '50s, and even if Trots don't like using it it still is a term which describes us.

As well, I think that it would help to summarize the ideologies of the different communist streams in that part of the article. The way it is, it only talks about history. 71.198.98.233 16:10, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] USSR criticized for fascism

I keep adding this (with more references each time) and having it removed. Now, I hardly want to defend the criticism itself, but it is very common; indeed, I have cited an entire book about it. Not a book which calls the USSR fascist, but a book about the fact that Americans consider the USSR fascist. To say this cliche is not common (as has been said in edit summaries) simply baffles me. It's all over the place, at least in writing contemporary with the USSR's existence. -Jemmy Button 23:52, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I do agree with the cut. This article isn't about the USSR. Refernces to this view are perhaps useful in the article on the USSR, but is not a notable comment with regard to communism. What you're written also seems close to original research, for example in suggesting the Trotskyists share this view. That is not the case: Trotsky said that Stalinism exceeded fascism in its violence, but that is a comment about Stalinism and not communism, and not a statement that Stalinism is fascism. --Duncan 00:43, 9 October 2007 (UTC)We need to remember that Stalin killed 20 million russians between 1930 and 1953, people who were suspected of not being communist were brought to concentration camps also known as Gulags.
I didn't say anything about Trotsky. I inserted a George Orwell quote that said that. Sure, the article isn't about the USSR, but the subsection is about criticism of communist states, and the USSR is one of those. --Jemmy Button 00:58, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

If the article isn't about the USSR, then why is the page littered with the hammer and sickle, the official logo of the USSR, NOT of communism? That logo has NOTHING AT ALL to do with true, orthodox communism... which is what this article should be about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Empco (talk • contribs) 02:35, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Communism and religion

 Please help improve this article or section by expanding it. Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion. (October 2007)

Previous posts on this talk page which I have archived brought up the subject of communism and religion. This article does not describe that relationship at all, yet the atheism of the Soviet Union seems to have been a major reason for American opposition. Which of the various threads of communist thought or governance are atheistic, and where does that come from? -- Beland 00:38, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Communism and religion is probably a notable enough topic for its own article. Some related articles on Wikipedia are religious communism and Christian communism. Marx was a strict atheist since his youth and Marxist philosophy and nearly all strains of Marxism are atheistic. Some of the smaller strains of communism are also atheistic for independent reasons, though they are less likely to include views on religion as part of their dogma. ~ Switch (✉✍☺☒) 01:01, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Amazing that there is no mention of religion at all. One wonders about what happened to attempted prior edits. Student7 (talk) 21:21, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

This is User: Political dweeb here and I I'm responsible I think for creating this article on Communism and religion. The reason I created this article was to ask a question. It was that firstly I am saying do any of the political parties, movements, organisations etc that believe in communist ideologies called Leinism, Trotskyism, left communism, Marxism-Leninism and council communism believe in either of two political positions on atheism? These two political positions I am talking about are either making sure that religion is apart from the state and society or that it is necessary for the world to exist without all of its religions.

I hope what I have said is suitable and apart from the questions I've asked above if there's any other questions anyone wants to ask me on this subject please talk talk to me on this discussion page or on my talk page thank you. .--Political Dweeb (talk) 11:48, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] On Merging with "World Communism"

The two are different concepts and shouldn't be merged as the ideas advocated by Trotsky are radically different from the common interpetation of Communism. I would like the link to this discuss page to be taken down ```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by Casey QuestionMark (talk • contribs) 03:04, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

It's still Communism. Zazaban (talk) 23:44, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Thats like saying that Peanut Butter and Jelly should be merged because they both go well on toast.--69.152.132.177 (talk) 06:59, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

No, it's like Blueberries and Strawberries should be grouped together because they're both berries. Zazaban (talk) 07:14, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Thats a far better comparison. I was trying to think of something, but I was tired...--69.152.132.177 (talk) 10:21, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No mention about Communist crimes against humanity?

Why there is no mention in this article about the 120 millions that communism has killed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.102.18.181 (talk) 14:56, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Because communism itself did not kill people, but the leaders of so-called communist countries did. If you looked at the article on Stalin or Zedong(actually most people would say they didn't) , you will see that their acts are defined, but the system of communism itself did not make them harm people, it was their own doing, unlike fascism, which advocates this sort of thing. --69.94.181.132 (talk) 15:29, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

How can a system advocate anything? It is the people who support it who do. I can quote Mao and others as suggesting that many people will have to die to usher in the new age and get the retort that "it should be in their bio" not communism. At what point does communism differ from fascism? Who speaks for either one or both? At what point does either system become liable for what their implementers do? Are the statements "acceptable" only because they sound "nice" and therefore are "communistic" and belong in here? The differences between the two systems are so tiny that they were indistinguishable to liberals in the thirties. One is Socialism, the other National Socialism. They are both very pretty on paper. Once thugs start implementing them that both become distasteful. Student7 (talk) 13:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

"Because communism itself did not kill people" -- thank you for inadvertently providing the biggest laugh I've had in a long while!!! Glad to see that Wikipedia's usual standards -- meaning, atrociously laughable standards -- continue in full force!!! *smile* —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.232.28.69 (talk) 03:39, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Stalin killed those people. Not communism. And to the dork above, even the editors at Brittanica would laugh at this guy. 74.251.24.251 (talk) 05:25, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Even though it's Britannica, not Brittanica. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Andres07 (talk • contribs) 02:26, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed.--69.152.132.177 (talk) 06:59, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I think there should be a section quoting the following from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights... "Article 17. (1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.", and "Article 17. (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.". I think its important to note than communism conflicts with human rights as we understand them today.
No, because that would be taking a side, and would be a POV. Zazaban (talk) 06:16, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Even though its a fact? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.159.186.169 (talk) 12:31, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
It would be worth pointing out the the UN POV is still a POV nonetheless. The UN version of human rights is based on a capitalist idea of human rights in the first place, so communist ideals would be in conflict with it. Also, communism predates the UN. Zazaban (talk) 21:14, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Private Property, IE a factory, a mining operation, a bank is different that what the UN is describing as property which is personal property the difference is clearly defined, such as a car, a house, a tv set, a spoon, and so on. It should be noted that the Soviet Union help draft the UN Declaration of Human Rights.
Incorrect. The UN World Declaration merely talks about property but does not clearly define what constitutes property and what does not. It can therefore be interpreted which way you want. However Article 30 clearly makes limiting interpretions a crime against humanity efficiently making communism a crime against humanity. Which it is. The articles on Nazism and Fascism contains references to the crimes against humanity committed by Nazis and Fascists (two socialistic ideologies, both marxist in part). So should this one. There has never been a Communist system that did not commit crimes against Humanity. This article is one the biggest evidence of the corruption of the "elite".Dylansmrjones (talk) 03:17, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
The article is long enough as it is, and a reference to the crimes committed by self-professed communists would make it meaninglessly longer. To say that their crimes equate to an inherent crime in the theory of communism is as absurd as saying that David Koresh's actions are typical of people with brown hair. Indeed, perhaps I should point you to Karl Marx's own words. He declared in an article in the New York Tribune that capital punishment was an abomination in any nation that called itself civilized. In the Manifesto itself he wrote that, "in place of the old bourgeois society--with its classes and class antagonisms--we shall have an association in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all. (emphasis mine) At any rate, your position is not NPOV. If you want to argue this further, there are plenty of forums on the internet to go do it in.Sarcastic Avenger (talk) 16:39, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, two points - 1)A communist would disagree that property is a human right; 2) We could write on the Capitalism page about it's crimes against humanity, given the UNDHR talks about a right to work 9something I believe the Soviet bloc got inserted).--Red Deathy (talk) 11:28, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Let's just get an actual communist's viewpoint in here. I think that the people maintaining that communism kills are in severe need of extra-government education, and that those making personal attacks at intelligence are just a bunch of typical capitalists. Further, I don't think fascism advocates murder or crimes against humanity any more than communism, no matter how much i disagree with such an ideology. Further still, I would agree that property is a human right, though unrestricted gain of property is not a human right. Back on the subject of crimes against humanity, no system I know of, and not any that the above speakers are referring to, has ever committed any crime against humanity. I do believe however, that the crimes against humanity by people and states claiming to be communist should be mentioned in an article on this page. I would also like to see a section explaining that many new communists do not support nations like the USSR or PRC, and in some cases may even be against their practices, as they are not truly communist, and they give us a really bad name. Llama (talk) 00:53, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

120 Million?? Did you count that? That is simply not true. If you count every single person that died in China, and Russia during Mao Ze Dong or Stalin's rule, then you might get that number. You might want to blame all the people who died in the great depression on Hoover, or blame all the people killed in Japan in WWII on Roosevelt then. Now, if you blame all the innocent (non military) people killed in Vietnam on Kennedy, that would make more sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.159.224.65 (talk) 02:41, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Can we please stop this for this article? The editor is correct about a system murdering no one. The correct place for murders by ruler is Criticisms of Communist party rule, though I didn't notice any there either. Deaths by ruler were pretty bad, but they don't go here. But try at the pointed article. Thanks. Student7 (talk) 03:02, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

There used to be a graph that displayed the deaths under communist rule from several commuist countries. The section also included estimates from several different academics and groups from a mild 18 million to a super wild 200+ million. It was removed by a horde of communists who basically ran this page a few years back. I think a compromise was reached to put in on a criticism page but they still managed to have enough reverts to keep it off. I think people basically gave up since certain people don't want sourced criticism of their favorite dogma. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.110.172.111 (talk) 23:59, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


This article is about the theory of communism, not it's practice. And the death related to communism are hotly disputed and exagerated with american propoganda saying over 200 million which in my opinion, is a gross exageration. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CCCPSOVIET (talk • contribs) 13:48, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Man is evil, not communism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.100.241.37 (talk) 17:20, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm seriously getting substantially pissed at how often I hear "Communism = evil", Who exactly was given the scepter with which to say what is or what isn't evil? Communism is an ideology with it's PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE claims and COMPLETELY INAPPROPRIATE faults. THATS NEUTRAL. I've seen several comments on this page by people who call out the "evils" of communism, but completely overlook the Bosnia air campaign, which was a flagrant device to intimidate Eastern Europe, the bombing of "anything that moves" in Vietnam, flagrantly intended to kill civilian targets, and furthermore the trade embargo on Cuba, all of which have essentially killed people and all of which have been executed by capitalist societies. I don't presume to know the totals of these atrocities, but I can make a guess unintended to slander an ideology based upon the acts of man. Of course communism has attained a lesser status due to it's, lets face it, slightly deranged leaders, but I don't strut around slapping Christians in the face for the murders executed by that branch of theology during the Crusades. Look at Che, man was a communist, man killed people, man did it for his reasons, man died. That simple, little arbitration noted. I'll entertain the idea of Che being “evil”, and I'll definitely play ball with the notions of Stalin and Zedong being “evil”, but at the end of the day, it truly is the people whom are “evil”, not the ideology. I truly would not mind living in a communistic society. But unfortunately people aren't perfect, and people implement ideologies, hence the imperfection of people is inherent with their actions, not the imperfection of an ideology, which is not present. Man isn't evil, man implies totality, men are "evil".

Can you say the same about "Fascism" with a straight face? Reading the entry on the latter makes you wonder how they got into the same encyclopedia. It's "not nice" to take stuff away from other people and distribute it to people who seem needy. Who is the "decider?" That is crucial. The Party says "We are the deciders." But they were seldom elected in a fair election. The system stinks. Most Communist governments have been run by self-appointed thugs. Some of the Fascists actually got themselves elected! It is "not nice" to be a thug and claim immunity using Communism, but that is what most have done. Systems actually using democratic communism have mostly failed except those with a Christian basis (monasteries, convents). Not a great system. The Soviets system failed, Cuba is falling, North Korea has failed but nobody there seems to know it. Communism has been a human disaster. Student7 (talk) 14:46, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

The president is the "decider" in this country, right now the Democratic party are the "deciders" in Congress, and I guess the Supreme Court justices are also "deciders". Every single revolution turns into stale bureaucracy at some point, that's unfortunately true. Fascism is something I greatly disagree with, but Francisco Franco did bring stability to Spain, much like Castro ended American Imperialism in Cuba. Both were dictators, both used harsh measures. Furthermore I didn't hear any mention of Sweden in that last remark. Sweden, at the moment is on the upturn in terms of their economy, they are making progress where we have long stopped, environmentally, socailly, economically. I think of Sweden as far more "Communistic" than the Soviet Union, and in those Scandanavian countries Socialism isn't implemented in the form of a bloody revolution but that of the ballot. The Soviet Union was not communism, that was what has been termed commu-capitalism, with the richest individuals still controlling all things. Before I slander my own country as to call it "fascist", I think that you should slander your own arguement by giving more credit to the Soviets. When the Bolsheviks took over, your common Russian was all for it, a release from serfdom, and then things got ugly. Things turned into an aristocracy. Unless my history is mistaken, my country was founded by aristocrats. All of my elected leaders cherrypick their messages to further themselves, themselves being aristocrats. Much like the "Comrade" propaganda of the Soviets we here in America have the media. Were this country to turn overnight into a system of direct-democracy, the media would hold power. Barack Obama is an excellent example of how the media can catapult public officials in this country. His keynote speech got the media talking, and they really didn't shut up about him. To slander communism by it's ventures in culturally detiorating places is in my mind foul play. I won't slander capitalism by it's imperialistic dogmas, I also take into account the social uplifting one can execute if one has that will. I won't slander communism by it's "deciders", I also take into account the truly altruistic aspect of it. Equality. I dislike being told that I am less than someone, and in capitalism I combat this in the workplace, by accumulating status, wealth. In communism people are empowered to change their environment, to go forth with everyone in the boat, no man left behind, and our country, the epitome of capitalism, referred to the bullet for it's system, in Sweden they referred to the ballot. Communism isn't a failure, any authority or government is illegitimate lest it justify it's presence, as you noted the Soviet Union, North Korea, and Cuba cannot justify their presence. Fascists would agree with me about a governments subjectivity, Franco loved subjectivity. And I would say that about Fascism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.111.218.146 (talk) 18:03, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

The Socialist Revolutionaries won the election in Russia two to one over Lenin's party. See, for example,Menshevik#After_the_1917_Revolution But Lenin had the guns and took over. The last I heard, we were electing our government every four years, every two in some states and cities. The communists don't bother with such niceties. Too much feedback which differs with "the book."
Sweden has capitalistist corporations and capitalists. See for examples Jan Stenbeck[2], a billionaire. And more wiki category Swedish billionaires. And corporations that work Category Swedish Companies in which people actually want to invest in. More socialist than us but not mindlessly stupidly communistic, the reason for their success. People vote. The Swedish government changes and giveways are stopped when they threaten the economy. Doesn't happen in a Communist society. Which is why they all failed. No feedback. Or no response to feedback, which is the same thing. They "know" they are right and when it doesn't work, it is somebody else's fault! And the people aren't allowed to vote them out because they aren't at "that phase" of development "yet." (and never will be either. It's just against human nature on both property and religious grounds (and probably others). Student7 (talk) 22:24, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I never said that communism is right, or that Sweden is completely socialist. Communism can't have "failed", there are still many different factions vouching for position, I'd say that prone to failure is a better way of saying this. It can't be completely against people's property grounds, before the manifesto it was common knowledge in workplaces that workers SHOULD own the mills, people are greedy, but it's just a different way of looking at things. Through the writings of the prominent figures of C. I've noticed that they feel that the power of the individual is "unleashed" through communism, many of the "evil" figures argued over above were freaking nuts. I respect communists, as long as they are Maoists, Leninists or Stalinists, because it takes an extremely strong person to advocate that for a very long time. Humanity survived pre-history in many places without notions of personal property, but public property. Communism, as put forth by Marx is a nearly perfect theory, much like Fascism, Capitalism, any other theory. There is no such thing as human nature so anything related to said argument is a moot point. There is little mindlessly stupid about communism. In the manifesto Marx makes audaciously good claims, such as class conflict, wage slavery, and trade wars, all of which we see afflicting our society today. It is believed in communism that "the people" will take power in degrees, or in one decisive blow, and we, in human history, have seen this progression from despots, to kings, to regents, and most recently to representatives. I don't see WHY anyone would not want to live in a communistic society as it should be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.111.218.146 (talk) 00:14, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Wage slavery is voluntary. The one-company towns of yesteryear are history. Primitive man survived because he had his own spear, arrows, firemaking tools, clothes (!), amulet (religion). Civiilization didn't get off the ground until people learned to exchange trinkets/money for things. Theoretical communism planned to have no correct price for anything. Unfortunately the theory was followed and managers had no basis for decision-making. This is why poorly made goods piled up in warehouses and why the Russian Mafia began. (No not when communism fell - that's when they got publicity for the first time). Only the mafia could help a manager make quota in the absence of input goods from another incompetent factory. Incompetence is enshrined in communism. Only by ignoring it, could communism in the Soviet Union survive as long as it did - money into rockets, atomic weapons, and international strife. (the "theory" covered strife too, you see. Us nasty capitalists would try to bring them down so they had to kill us) (Like we're doing to Sweden, right?)
No such thing as human nature? Ah, the "new socialist man." I think I will stop here.Student7 (talk) 11:17, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Communism is no more immmersed in strife than Capitalism. The Constitution is just as bloodied as the Manifesto. If you mean by "voluntary" you mean depletion of other economic opprotunities then yes, I would say that wage slavery is voluntary by the inclination of people to prefer slaving to starving. No correct price because the unit of worth is the work a person puts into an object as opposed to the object itself, honestly, I'm not too sure that "capitalism" or natural economies can be avoided, I just find it is better to proceed forward with everyone in tow, not just blundering through the ages like bulls in Madrid. If capitalism is allowed to run rampant, with no control, we will see conflicts, in my mind, of a larger scale than ever before. The probability of a nuclear strike within the next ten years has never been higher, and as we see "globalization" taking hold, which actually means the concentration of 86% of the world's wealth into the top 20% of the population, we see Romanesque wars of neverending objectives. Currently, we're at war with a noun, not even a proper noun, a noun, in order to continue our hegemonic domination of the world, forcing other countries into corners, economically, militarily, and politically, till they lash out. These in my mind, are the consequences of rampant capitalism. I could care less about what Chavez says about New Socialism, I personally think he is kind of a prick. The human nature thing is more existentialist, and no I'd rather not discuss that further than each and every person being individuals, individuals in that my clinical reaction will always be different from yours. I favor the Zapatistas more than any other political affiliation. If "nasty capitalists" afflict my country, assail my country, and intimidate my country, they would be my enemy, and I hope that the same would apply to you, were the situation in your lap. I'd rather not see the ideals my country is built on obliterated for the sake of our hegemony over the world. Happened to Rome, will happen to us. The Dark Ages happened, they can happen again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.111.218.146 (talk) 06:55, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about doing anything to anybody else, but Communist countries have been pretty good about eliminating their own populations - Stalin's purges of the 30s, Mao's of the 40's and Pol Pot's of the 80s(or so) were worse than most wars. Tens of millions for the first two. The latter maybe not so much but a heavy percentage of the country in the effort to "create a new man." Well, they didn't create a new man, they simply eliminated a lot of their old ones. Trying to run a country now with half of their people and most people with education, dead.
Democracies, which Communists seldom are, have never warred on one another in the last 200 or so years with the sole exception (small window) of India and Pakistan. Small window because Pakistan isn't democratic very often or long!  :( Unelected communists, and there are seldom any other kind, are the ones that have promoted conflict from 1945-1990. Today, it's countries who have governments that are not popular, similar to the way Communists hold office.
It is capitalism which triggered the industrial revolution. Ask anyone old if they want to go back to the past. While there is lots of nostalgia for lost culture and social opportunities, no one wants to retreat to lesser prosperity.Student7 (talk) 13:06, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

And when the industrial revolution began to interfere with the living quality of average man communism developed. It was not capitalism, it was people becoming more scientifically intelligent, that's like blaming the system of communism for the insanity of a few mad men. Oh. You speak constantly of people losing property, and lesser prosperity, yet after the Cuban revolution the quality of living for the many was greatly increased, Fulgencio Batista would keep the many in the poorhouse for as long as he could, also enforcing brutal measures. Also supported by a domineering world power. The Cuban Revolution sparked great improvments in Cuba, I have several friends whom went on a humanitarian mission to Cuba, when I asked of the Cuban people's condition their response was "Estan felices, la problema mas importante es de transportacion publico." The people are happy, the biggest problem is public transportation. But how could this be? Castro's a criminal! Oh my. On that note how do you think that capitalistic countries hold power or dominate the world? The way Rome did, The way We do, the bullet, not the ballot. Before you insist that Communism insists on strife look America up and down and judge it. FDR. Murderer. Truman. Murderer. Johnson. Murderer. Kennedy. Murderer. Clinton. Murderer. Jackson. Murderer. Washington. Murderer. No big ol' tally for them now is there? Of our conflict with the Soviets I do know one very intriguing detail; We didn't bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki to end the war quickly, a blockade would have been much more "peace-loving capitalism", a blockade that wouldn't have snuffed the lives of thousands to intimidate the post World War World. No. We saw the imperialistic side of capitalism, the side that you have not explained yet, the side that justifies it's acts insofar by "greater prosperity". "Greater prosperity" meaning the concetration of 86% of the world's wealth into the top 20% of the population. Want to speak of the deprivation of liberty, life, and the pusuit of happiness? Lets talk U.S. Lets talk our foreign policy under Bush, and every other president for the last 20 years. Foreign policy being a bomb. And in November when Barack is president it will be a bomb nonetheless, albeit a bomb with a smiley face on it. America, I am so sorry, we have been led astray. So long as we consider Hamas a terrorist organization will we wage wars on democracies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Quixotic0823 (talk • contribs) 18:11, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Page Vandalism and Removal of Facts to Skew POV

Someone keeps removing my changes from the criticism section, despite me providing a source for the information I added. Do I need to remind people that we must keep NPOV, and not remove FACTS just because they do not suit our agenda? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.159.186.169 (talk) 19:18, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Be careful in using the label "Vandalism." The editor removing your changes is concerned that the critics you mention (the "Some critics") are not specifically identified (see WP:WEASEL), and that you have not provided an actual source saying something like "Dr. Mork Frankenbaum says that Communism violates the following articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights..." If you are unable to provide a reliable source to attribute this point of view, then it cannot stay in the article. Silly rabbit (talk) 19:25, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
So if I remove references to "someone" then it will be ok? The quotes from the UDHR are the facts, regardless of who says it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.159.186.169 (talk) 19:31, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
That the UDHR says what it says is a fact; that the UDHR is relevant to communism is an analysis, or a point of view. Quoting the declaration without citing a source claiming that the DHR is relevant to communism looks like putting forward your own point of view about the relationship between the two, which is not compatible with NPOV. Note also that the article already mentions criticisms of the human-rights records of communist states, so I'm not sure what we add by quoting the UDHR; if we had a cite of a specific argument that has been made quoting the declaration, it would be clearer why it's worth mentioning. VoluntarySlave (talk) 19:52, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


If you're going to be that way, how about America's crimes against humanity, specifically in the Philippines, Chile, Brazil, Guatemala, Cuba, Costa Rica, & so forth, plus those of the twentieth century. How about Capitalism's crimes against humanity, child labor, forced labor, slavery, corporate sponsored coups perpetrated by democratic governments, sweat shops, exploitation on natural resources & the work force. The evidence is there on both sides. In actuality--possibly because communism is fairly new--capitalism has committed far more crime against humanity than communism & thanks to this new war in Iraq, is continuing to commit crimes against humanity. Coins have two sides, a public face & an evil face. Look before you leap, or rather watch the actions of those you defend, they're not as rosy as you'd like. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.184.107.87 (talk) 23:44, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Is the preceding comment in the right section? I don't see what it is responding to.
Communism is responsible on a time-matched sequence to everyone else. Pol Pot to the (say) capitalist India in the 1980s. Communism wasn't around in the 19th century to perpetrate any abuses. Democratic capitalism has solved a lot of the problems you mentioned. The only way problems get solved in a communisst tyranny is to overthrow the government.
As far as Iraq goes, they just got rid of the "yellow cake" uranium the other day which Saddam had accumulated for some reason. Really breaks my heart to see him gone. Student7 (talk) 01:30, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism by Communist History Revisionists

Due to vandalism from people who are self-declared communists (but not Communists), I've added a disputed-tag to the article. The history revisionism goes along the lines of "No system so far has been true communism" which is a logical fallacy (No True Scotsman). This logical fallacy is used as an excuse to remove criticism of Communism, particularly crimes against humanity. The article should have same build-up as the articles on Fascism, Nazism and National Extremism. Fact is that nobody denied the Communist nature of the socialist regimes in East Europe until the mid-90'es and the increased critique of Communism. The Far Left bias on Wikipedia is becoming increasingly problematic. VoluntarySlave and Zazaban are both pro-Communist according to their own statements (look at their user pages and their comments at this talk page), none-the-less they still remove critical information. This is a conflict of interests. Dylansmrjones (talk) 05:07, 18 January 2008 (UTC) PS: The Communist History Revisionist are effectively turning Wikipedia into a Communist equivalent of Conservapedia. Such a process should be stopped immediately. Dylansmrjones (talk) 05:40, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think anyone objects to including criticisms of those regimes that called themselves communist on this page, as long as those criticisms have been put forward by sound sources as criticisms of communism. There are lots of things you could say about particular communist states, but only some of them are related to communism - to take an extreme example, Russia is very cold, but that has nothing to do with the fact that Russia was a communist country, so it doesn't make sense to mention it in this article. On the other hand, mentioning the human rights record of Communist states is reasonable, because it can be backed up with references to the (fairly common and notable) claim that communism per se is closely related to violations of human rights.
The section you recently added on Soviet Imperialism, though, didn't attempt to make any connection between the foreign policy of the USSR and communism; perhaps some people have made such a connection, in which case it would be appropriate to mention that, with suitable sources, in the article.
(On a point of fact - you're wrong that no-one denied that Eastern European countries were communist before the mid-90s. The SPGB has been denying it since 1917, and Trotskyists have been debating whether or not the USSR is/was communist or state capitalist since the 1920s). VoluntarySlave (talk) 07:07, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
The SPGB actually predicted in 1908, or thereabouts, that a revolution in Russia could only lead to state capitalism. --Duncan (talk) 07:52, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Another small point - the No True Scotsman fallacy works by agreeing that Jimmy is a Scotsman, but arguing that if he does not possess a quality that the speaker holds to be true of all Scotsmen, then he is not a true one (i.e. Scotsmen possess essential feature A, but Jimmy is a Scotsman, without A, so he's not a True Scotsman). It is a variant on Moving the Goalposts and a violation of the law of the excluded middle, by arguing that A is not A. It is very different from saying that there are essential features to being a Scotsman, which, if Jimmy does not possess them, means he is not a Scotsman at all.--Red Deathy (talk) 10:48, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I would like to add my name to those who believe this whole section skews heavily toward an apologist view of communism. Communist nations have been heavily prone to dictatorship and genocide, caused by irrational adherence to political beliefs over realist beliefs. This is demonstrated by the massive numbers of people who died under communist rule in many nations (Soviet Union, China, Cambodia, North Korea). The arguments that these deaths have nothing to do with communism are equivalent to saying that the holocaust had nothing to do with Nazism, because Nazism doesn't ever mention the mass murder of Jews. It is preposterous, in other words.

If you view the page on Nazism, it mentions the holocaust and the deaths of 11 million people under Nazi rule on the first page, despite the fact that Nazism does not advocate either. But it is accepted that Nazism leads to genocide because it is anti-Semitic. I only ask that this article on communism be treated in the same fashion. Mrdarklight (talk) 19:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, nazism does advocate genocide. Also, the ideology of the countries you speak of is stalinism, which is generally despised by other forms of communism. Also, I have no idea how I'm a historical revisionist, or how my user page shows that I'm 'pro-communist' (I'm an anarchist by the way.) Zazaban (talk) 20:33, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Not true, National Socialism didn't, as an ideology, advocate genocide; and in no tract or writ was it considered part of the ideology by any of it's thinkers or theorists during it's contemporary reign. The sole country to come to power under Nazism/National-Socialism simply ended up integrating it into their system as an acceptable process. I suppose if there were only one instance of a self-professed 'communist' nation in history, anything it would have done would have been considered the eternal communist ideology too, but you have to remember it is more complex, and there is more to the letter of the ideology than just what comes to fruition. Rather the ideology itself is an abstract thing, but a measurable thing nonetheless. 67.5.156.242 (talk) 09:05, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

This pages links to Criticism of communism, and readers can find those facts there. Ths page is about Communism as an ideology. Information on other pages simply needs to be linked to with the shortest of summaries. --Duncan (talk) 07:51, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Resolving the disputes

Could the people who put the disputed tags list the changes they would like to see made, so we can discuss them?--Red Deathy (talk) 11:18, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

It be my first time visiting this article, and I chuckled seeing "citation needed" at the end of the first sentence. Indicates to me that this is gonna need a heck of a lot of work. ^_^ -- Phoenix2 03:28, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
DuncanBCS has reverted Jimmy da Tuna, an unregistered user's, changes to the intro by saying "see earlier comments." I do not see these "earlier comments." What comments are those? It seems to me that this editor's changes were worth considering, though his reference from an encyclopedia would probably need upgrading. Also, the intro might not be the right place. At least it was a stab at justifying what is there. Nice to have new edits that are factually based IMO. Student7 (talk) 19:29, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Apologies. I remember leaving an edit summary on the page to explain that the Columbia reference Jimmy added seemed, to be, to be POV because the quote claimed' that communism differs from socialism in that communism is revolutionary, thus suggesting that socialism is reformist. I cant see that edit summary there now, so I must have done something wrong. However, that deleted view seems to be simplistic, and inaccurate. Revolutionary socialism exists, and the Second International also had a revolutionary orientation. --Duncan (talk) 09:37, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Making the article meet neutrality standards

Maybe there should be a section of arguments for Communism next to the Criticism of Communism section This would not only make the article much more neutral, but also be a place to put some of things in the introductory paragraph that don't belong there. Jimmy da tuna 20:49, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

good god - how has no-one got enough wits to right a neutral article here? e.g., i think that it's ok to say that communism led to these deaths, but it's too much to say that "communism killed them" - what would a statement like that mean? marx killed however million people, rosa luxemborg, the working class, russians, stalin, a general strike, Das Kapital, the political activism of left wingers, the red threat??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.67.248.49 (talk) 20:04, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how long the "companion" article on Fascism has been around, but it's worth looking at. They have their problems as you might expect. In a slightly different vein, when the media learned that conservatives in the new Russia opposed reform, they began calling them "right wingers" because the media hates right wingers, not because Communists are actually right wingers! So much for "neutrality" from them!  :) Student7 (talk) 20:22, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Recently learned that WE Dubois and other liberals thought the German and Italian regimes (National Socialists) were just wonderful right up until 1937 or so. Then (and not until then!) obvious abuses of Jewish and other minorities caused a revulsion and they (and their cohorts in the media) began calling them "right-wingers." Funny how that works! Student7 (talk) 23:44, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism of Communism

I didn't follow the reasoning behind Francomemoria's deletion of specific criticism (because they are discussed elsewhere?) Is that what he said? Criticism is often part of any controversial topic. What is there about this topic that is non-controversial and therefore immune (?) to criticism in the same article? I don't understand the deletes. I thought the criticisms were good but needed specific footnotes. Student7 (talk) 00:25, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

High percentage of national product is spent on the military
(this is not a typical of socialist state, it's easy see that also not under communist ruler have high spent on military, and this is eventually is a critic at the states)
Poor economic policies can cause widespread famine. Notable examples include Holodomor (class and :national) and the Great Chinese Famine
(or the famine was caused volontary (this the position widespread) so it's not a poor economic :policies or this are poor economic policies and aren't massacre. and famine aren't typical of socialis :state, and this eventually is a critic at the states)
Excess deaths due to Marxist regimes have been estimated as high 110 million people from 1917 to 1987 :according to some critics
(this not excess deaths, we can't know how many deaths in that time and state with an other regime, :and this eventually is a critic at the states)
Power is concentrated in a few individuals.
(also this is not typical of socialist state and obvsiously this is a critic at the states)
Communist ruled societies have often exhibited lower output and income compared to their non-communist :counterparts, for example North Korea vs. South Korea and West Germany vs. East Germany.
(this is not scientific conparation is a near country not is same start situation, for many years :income of East Germany was over many capitalist country (also this is not a scientific comparation)  :and also this is a critic a the states)

--Francomemoria (talk) 11:58, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Criticism of communist "states" (as opposed to "communism") is a valid complaint, except where patterns of outcomes are evident. If every communist state ends up in dictatorship, for example, then it is fair to say that communist states tend to end up as dictatorships. Likewise, famine is unusually common in communist states. Often the causes are known, such as attempts to alleviate some Capitalist ill by completely changing the way agriculture is managed, for example. If several communist states have suffered from famines because they fundamentally misunderstand agriculture and economics, then it is fair to say that communist states are prone to famine for those reasons.
If every capitalist state has banks, and I want to point out that banking is a part of capitalism, it is ludicrous to oppose this statement because "yes, these STATES had banks, but Capitalism doesn't necessarily have banks." Mrdarklight (talk) 01:58, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Theoretically, you could have capitalism without banks. That aside the crimes of "communist" states are seen by some partisans of the theory of state capitalism as being analogous with similar crimes of advanced capitalist states during primary accumulation. Which is to say, that the question is actually quite complicated, so a nuanced approach would be needed.--Red Deathy (talk) 11:59, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
famineis not so common like you think all socialist country with famine problem have this problem also before of communist take power, central europe countries hadn't this problem in capitalist rule and hadn't in communist rule, some poor capitalist state suffer famine also today and none write is a common feature of capitalist state, or maybe?. dictatorship is not a question, for wikipedia it's a communist state if there is a dictatorship so this obvsiouly recurrent. --Francomemoria (talk) 12:11, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I read the entire article and still have no idea of what communisim is.

Communists believe that the working class, also called the proletariat, would have to start a revolution in order to change from a competitive capitalist society to a co-operative communist society.

Why is there no simple explanation or example of what a "competitive capitalist society" and what a "co-operative communist society" is after this sentence (which would be the appropriate place to explain these differences)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.228.133.99 (talk) 12:33, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the reason is that there is no generally accepted definition on what communism is. I think there are some common themes recurring within communism, who aren't exactly unique:
  • common property: either communal or owned by state,
  • no classes, everybody belong to same "class",
  • the individual cannot be defined except in a social concept (the "mind-trap of socialism" by my estimation) - which is heavily used as an argument for oppression,
  • materialism: no god, only goods and share/share-alike, this life is the only life,
  • no arguing with the enemy bourgeoisi propaganda (the "cult-processing mind-trap of so called Marxism-Leninism" by my estimation.
Said: Rursus ☻ 19:05, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
The intro is a bit full of jargon. While the above needs a bit of cleanup from POV, maybe some of it could be substituted? Some of the Marxist jargon is (let's face it) so the masses could be told that the concepts were "beyond them" and therefore only a priesthood of intellectuals could understand it, much like quantum physics or something. "Dialectical materialism" kind of falls into that category. Also (if we are talking seriously here) some nomenclature between "individual cannot be defined" (a bit hard to grasp) and whatever jargon the Communists gave it; and "no arguing with the enemy" and whatever jargon,,, etc. Student7 (talk) 22:55, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
My statement is more like OR (claiming that cultisms also occur in neo-liberalism, aside the normal religious cults and the business cults) than not-NPOV, so it must be cleaned up – yes! Much temper in my statements.