Talk:Book of Mormon

El directorio enciclopédico desde la Wikipedia.

This article is part of Latter Day Saint movement WikiProject, an attempt to provide comprehensive and detailed information about the Latter Day Saint movement and Mormonism on Wikipedia. To participate in the project, edit this article, visit the List of articles about the Latter Day Saint movement, the project page, and/or join the discussion. For writing guidelines about contributing to the project, you may want to read Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Latter Day Saints) and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Latter Day Saints)
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. See comments
Christianity
Christianity portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page to become familiar with the guidelines.
B This article has been rated as B-class on the quality scale.
High This article has been rated as high-importance on the importance scale.
Assessment comments

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Book of Mormon article.
Article policies
This is a controversial topic that may be under dispute.
Please read this page and discuss substantial changes here before making them. Make sure to supply full citations when adding information and consider tagging or removing uncited/unciteable information.
Book of Mormon is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.
Archive
Archives
1*, 2*, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
*From from Talk:Book of Mormon controversies

[edit] Removing weasel word

I am going to revert the language in the lede paragraph back to the original wording because it seems to me that "mimic" is not typically used in positive connotations and has a negative slant to it e.g. to mimic is to copy. The BOM's grammar style is similar to the KJV but still unique enough to not be considered "mimicking". The previous wording was that it is "similar to the early middle english of the KJV Bible". This statement was quite neutral and should not have been edited to include a weasel word. Twunchy (talk) 22:58, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

That's a good change. DJ Clayworth (talk) 23:04, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Mimic is the accurate linguistic word. The wording is not Early Modern English (EME) since Smith was not a native speaker of EME (either as author or translator). The style, whether a translation or original creation, was a mimic of the KJV style. That is the correct word whether this was a translation or an original creation. It is intended to mimic KJV as a religious text and is unlike other English religious texts of the early 19th century. The intention was to create a document that sounded like the scriptural wording of the classic EME texts--the KJV, Pilgrim's Progress, etc. Mimic is not a weasel word, but is the accurate word to indicate that the language of the text was to sound like the KJV. Of course it is not exactly EME because Smith was not a native speaker of that dialect and there are many "errors" in his usage of the language. "Mimic" is not a negative word and is often used in biology and linguisics to speak of organisms that look like other organisms or linguistic styles that seek to imitate other styles without being exact copies. (Taivo (talk) 04:06, 14 November 2008 (UTC))
Let me be very clear about this. The English of the BOM is not the English of 1830s America. Whether you believe that it is a translation or an original creation, its language is a mimic of Early Modern English (EME). The reason is fairly simple--a piece of scripture written in 1830 must sound like the KJV in order to be accepted as scripture. It must not just be "similar to", it must "mimic" KJV in order to sound like scripture because that was the model of what 1830s Americans thought scripture should sound like. They prayed that way because they thought God talked and listened that way. It is not a "different, but similar style" independent of KJV English, but a mimicry, an attempt to copy EME. If BOM is an original work by Smith, then the style shows Smith's nonnative mastery of the language in his attempt to copy KJV style. If BOM is a translation, then we must remember that EME was not the original language of BOM. It is a translation of another language done in 1830. It still shows Smith's nonnative mastery of EME in attempting to mimic the language of KJV. Either way, EME was not the language of 1830 America, Smith had an imperfect mastery of EME, and in order to be accepted as scripture, BOM had to mimic the EME of KJV. (Taivo (talk) 04:39, 14 November 2008 (UTC))
While I can't fault your logic, I believe that using "mimic" implies a deliberate attempt to copy the style; Mormons wouldn't believe that was the case (though I'm not actually sure what their explanation for the style similarity is). DJ Clayworth (talk) 18:43, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
But that's what I'm saying. Whether a deliberate attempt by Smith or by God helping Smith translate, it was deliberate for the reason that Americans in 1830 would never have accepted a text as "scripture" that didn't mimic the language of the KJV. A text written in contemporary English (1830 contemporary) would never have been accepted as scripture. Otherwise we must ask the question, "Why wouldn't a translation from another language use contemporary English instead of mimicing an archaic variety?" (Taivo (talk) 18:52, 14 November 2008 (UTC))

Since we are arguing over a word let's look at its common definitions:

Mimic:
1. imitate (a person or manner), especially for satirical effect;
2. One who practices mimicry, or mime
3. To imitate, especially in order to ridicule;
4. to take on the appearance of another, for protection or camouflage.
5. imitative, imitation, or mock
6. to imitate closely : to ape
7. to ridicule by imitation

These are from many sources and all have a common theme: Imitation. So let's look at that word...

Imitation:
1. something produced as a copy : counterfeit
2. a literary work designed to reproduce the style of another author (my emphasis)
3. resembling something else that is usually genuine and of better quality : not real

I cannot find a positive definition that fits the use of this word. Therefore it is by definition not a neutral word, but one that is slanted to negative connotations, which gets to the crux of WP:NPOV. The word is inappropriate in its use in this article. Twunchy (talk) 21:30, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually read my comments, please. If you don't like "mimic" then I will use "imitate". The language of the BOM is designed to reproduce the style of KJV. (See above comments for explanation). It was not subconscious and was deliberate--either on Smith's part or on God's part--since it was not the contemporary language of 1830. (Taivo (talk) 22:10, 14 November 2008 (UTC))

I am having a hard time with your insistence on changing an undisputed sentence unilaterally. There is no consensus or even impetus to change what you are changing. "Imitation" is not any better of a phrase than mimic, as it also denotes the negative as seen above...counterfeit, artificial, unoriginal, copied. In the KJV bible translation itself, they used archaic and unusual terms for the time period in which it was assembled, but we do not say that the bible is imitative of anything or that it mimics anything. It was perhaps a stylistic attempt to keep the old Latin roots of the church, and mix in some of the pagentry of the royals, perhaps to keep a distinction between the divine and the things of man e.g. thou and thine vs. you and your. There is no slant in either direction in the sentence that existed before your semantics experiment. There was nothing misguiding or false or inaccurate about the original language of the sentence. There is nothing that you are positively adjusting, methinks it is only your ego again trying to lay claim to this article as your own, heir professor. Don't make hay out of nothing...there is nothing wrong with the wording that was there, you made no attempt to see if anyone objected to the wording but I suspect that your own egomaniacal need to leave your mark on everything in this article is the only driving force here. Again I revert... Twunchy (talk) 22:40, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps a little experiment in semantics can resolve this...I would like other editors to input below each statement an example of their understanding of the meaning of each statement:

1: The shape of an orange is similar to a sphere.
2: The shape of an orange mimics a sphere.
3: The shape of an orange imitates a sphere.

and as another try this:

1: The scent of liquorice is similar to anise.
2: The scent of liquorice mimics anise.
3: The scent of liquorice imitates anise.

I think this should illustrate the neutrality of language that should be used here. There is quite a distinction between the statements. Twunchy (talk) 23:00, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The old wording implied that the "similarity" was purely accidental and that the BOM style stands somehow on its own as an independent style. It was not accidental but purposeful and done on purpose. That is what the word "imitates" makes clear. Whether on purpose by God or on purpose by Smith, it is not accidentally similar to KJV. That is the point. (Taivo (talk) 00:33, 15 November 2008 (UTC))
Perhaps you should review the Wikipedia policies about keeping civil. "Egomaniacal" is hardly civil. (Taivo (talk) 00:36, 15 November 2008 (UTC))

You are making a distinction that does not exist, is not supported by any literature out there, and your assertions are definitely in the realm of original research. Unless you can find someone who is making the assertions you are trying to, then it cannot be inserted into this article. We are stating facts...not making new assertions on our own here. Unless you can prove that either God or Joseph Smith, Jr. kept the language the same **ON PURPOSE** then it can only be assumed to be coincidental, because you have nothing to support your hypotheses. Twunchy (talk) 01:00, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

This feels like Taivo's personal preference and there is a definite spin being created by the use of this terminology. I find no reason to change from using similar or similarity. In what language was Smith to translate? Other languages continue to use the thee form of addressing others where English began to abandon it some time ago. However, that does not mean the the translation would be any different today were one to translate appropriately. These modern day versions are not translations so much as rephrased text to accommodate current English usage. It would not be a correct statement that at the time of Smith's translation that this language form was foreign; it is not even foreign today. I will revert to the original, uncontested language until your current edits; please stop the edit war until a consensus is achieved here. Twunchy, I understand your frustration, but let's try to stop the personal attack and focus on the edits. --StormRider 01:02, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
The fundamental problem is that the language of BOM was not Smith's native language, it was not contemporary English, it was not the common language of literature in 1830. It was a conscious imitation of KJV English. Translation from either Hebrew or "Reformed Egyptian" had no requirement for the imitation of KJV English. This would be the equivalent of using KJV English to translate Mein Kampf or War and Peace today. Storm Rider, you are wrong about contemporary English translations of the Bible--they are not "rephrased" KJV--they are original translations from Greek or Hebrew into contemporary English. Since Storm Rider chose to warn me of a revert war without warning Twunchy, then I can hardly trust his neutrality in this, especially when Twunchy has offered no real arguments other than "that's not the way I want it and not the way it's been." (Taivo (talk) 01:31, 15 November 2008 (UTC))
I almost warned Twunchy, but I think you were the one who started this issue. I will warn anyone else that changes this from the original until we reach concensus here. I did warn/encourage Twunchy to stop his personal attacks, which are also inappropriate. I have read this position of your often in the lower quality anti-Mormon literature; it certainly isn't novel. I apologize that not everyone wants to go along with this POV and spin. What Wikipedia demands is a neutral treatment of topics. The thesaurus provides the following synonyms for similar: agnate, akin, allied, analogous, coincident, coincidental, coinciding, collateral, companion, comparable, complementary, congruent, congruous, consonant, consubstantial, correlative, corresponding, homogeneous, identical, in agreement, kin, kindred, like, matching, much the same, parallel, reciprocal, related, resembling, same, twin, uniform. This term is correct, it does not lead readers to a specific conclusion or insinuate some nefarious act, or demean Smith's translation. You are spinning; nothing more and nothing less. You may not be aware of this, but that does not mean it is not an accurate perspective of your choice of terminology. Move on. --StormRider 03:20, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Actually, I was not implying any nefarious act. Imitation of a particular style or use of a nonnative variety of a language is not at all uncommon in literature, especially in religious literature. The KJV itself uses an imitative style (as was mentioned above) that was archaic for its time as well. But the translators/editors of the KJV made a conscious decision to be imitative rather than contemporary--it added "majesty" to the translation and made it more acceptable as scripture to the users of the "new" translation. Modern translations sometimes consciously use more archaic styles for the very same reason--certain translations that use more colloquial registers of contemporary English have suffered through excessively bitter and unwarranted criticism for that very reason (Today's English Version and Contemporary English Version, for example). A good example of this is found in the story of the New English Bible, which was an extremely accurate translation which used a formal register of contemporary English. While it had the imprimatur of many churches in England, it was nevertheless controversial for departing from the wording of the KJV, so was superseded by the Revised English Bible. Compare Genesis 1:1 in NEB: "In the beginning of creation when God made heaven and earth...", which is the most accurate translation of the Hebrew, with the same verse in the REV: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," which is the KJV wording, but is not as accurate as a translation for various reasons. In each case, the other reading is in the footnotes. Readers demand a certain style in religious literature that is scripture. There was nothing nefarious about either Smith or God using an archaic style to write/translate the BOM, just as there was nothing coincidental about the imitation of KJV style rather than using contemporary English. (Taivo (talk) 08:29, 15 November 2008 (UTC))
I appreciate your tone above; thank you. To mimic and to imitate carry a certain sense of falsity in the English language; do you deny this? When in Rome or New York it is easy to find those who hawk their Louis Vuitton bags for cheap prices, but they are only imitations that mimic the appearance of the real thing. We commonly use these terms to denote something that is less than the real thing. Simply stating that an item is an imitation cheapens the product. There is a distinct difference between two cobblers who manufacture similar shoes and one cobbler that imitates the other. Another example, is a cubic ziconia is an imitation diamond; I don't know of anyone that would prefer to have the imitation when the real thing is available. Based upon sharing your academic background, I must assume you understand this usage. Are you saying that using mimic and/or imitate in this article would not have a negative connotation to readers? It appears that you strive to use both neutral and proper language; however, given that more than one editor has stated that your proposed language carries a negative connotation, it is logical that other readers would have a similar interpretation. I don't think it makes sense to tell others that though they have perceived a negative connotation, they are wrong and should not have that understanding. Doesn't it make sense to just use wording that does not carry any negative connotation or is at least neutral? I still think that similar adequately, neutrally states the reality of the matter without risk of leading readers to any conclusion. --StormRider 08:55, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
My problem with "similar" is twofold: First, it sounds coincidental. Second, it sounds like the BOM has a separate linguistic style independent of the KJV tradition. Neither is true. The "differences" between the language of the KJV and the BOM are quite minor and may relate more to the fact that Smith was not schooled in the subtleties of Early Modern English grammar. Whether or not you accept the first premise, the second is quite straightforward. The BOM is not something separate from the EME/KJV tradition, but stands firmly within it. "Similar" implies that something is coincidentally like something else, but fundamentally different ("The pronghorn is similar to the gazelle", "A volleyball is similar to the moon", "War and Peace is similar to The Lord of the Rings", etc.). This is not true of the BOM. I'm trying to find a word (first, "mimic", then "imitate") that conveys the notion that "similar" masks--that the language of the BOM is fundamentally part of the EME/KJV linguistic tradition. If you have a better suggestion, then please offer it. (Taivo (talk) 09:40, 15 November 2008 (UTC))
I don't yet have an alternative to offer, but I will continue to think about it as I am sure you will. I see your point, but I don't make as significant a distinction as you do with this term, but that is beside the point. You do and I accept that. The synonyms I provided above for similar would seem a good place to start. Are any of those terms acceptable? --StormRider 10:02, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

(new indent) When I look at the synonyms for:

  • imitate: act like, affect, ape, assume, be like, borrow, burlesque, carbon*, caricature, clone, copy, counterfeit, ditto*, do like, do likewise, duplicate, echo, emulate, falsify, feign, follow, follow in footsteps, follow suit*, forge, impersonate, look like, match, mime, mimic, mirror, mock, model after, parallel, parody, pattern after, personate, play a part, pretend, put on*, reduplicate, reflect, repeat, replicate, reproduce, resemble, send up*, sham, simulate, spoof, take off*, travesty, Xerox* and
  • mimic: act, ape, burlesque, caricature, copy, copycat, ditto*, do, do like, echo, enact, fake, go like, impersonate, look like, make believe, make fun of, make like, mime, mirror, pantomime, parody, parrot, perform, personate, play, resemble, ridicule, sham, simulate, take off*, travesty

it is quite clear that both of these terms and their synonyms have a clear negative connotation and are not acceptable for a neutral article. --StormRider 10:09, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

The inherent problem with looking at lists of "synonyms" is that there is no such thing as a true linguistic synonym and that there is no word in the language that doesn't have some negative connotation in some context. "Mimic" and "imitate" are perfectly neutral and acceptable technical terms in biology, for example. A whole class of insects is called, properly, "mimics". "Copy" would be an acceptable alternative. But just looking up a word in Roget's Thesaurus isn't a good way to judge it's applicability or not. We must be accurate in our use of terminology. That is an important function of an encyclopedia--not just neutrality, but accuracy. We can mislead by imprecise statements just as easily as by incorrect statements. (Taivo (talk) 11:56, 15 November 2008 (UTC))
Ah, sometimes the best solution is the simplest one--to cut rather than untie the Gordian knot. (Taivo (talk) 13:17, 15 November 2008 (UTC))
That works for me; a good solution! I hope Twunchy feels the same. The only reason I looked to the thesaurus was to demonstrate that there was negative connotation to the words you had proposed. Your examples above are correct when discussing insects, biology, etc.; however, when discussing this topic it would have been inappropriate to use such terminology because it set a negative tone to the article. I suspect that all of the editors feel similarly about accuracy in articles. --StormRider 17:49, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Mea culpa. I think I triggered this discussion with this edit:
http://en.wikipedia.orgindex.php?title=Book_of_Mormon&diff=251335518&oldid=251223450
I made this edit (removing the statement that the writing style of the Book of Mormon is similar to that of the King James version of the Bible) because a) there was no source for the statement and b) I don't think it's true.
The King James Version of the Bible is widely considered, at its best, a majestic example of English prose. Even in its more pedestrian sections, it is still, let us say, "very competently" written.
Compared to the King James Version of the Bible, the Book of Mormon lacks style. To be blunt, I don't think the word "majestic" comes into it.
If the passage had said that the antique "language" of the Book of Mormon was "similar" to that of the King James Version of the Bible, I wouldn't have made the edit. Saying the "style" was similar was going too far.
The alternative wording, discussed above, that the style of the Book of Mormon "mimics" that of the King James Version, is extremely generous to the Book of Mormon, IMO. One might better say that the style of the Book of Mormon is a pale imitation of that of the King James Version. CBHA (talk) 03:22, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
No need for the mea culpa. "Majestic language" is in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure that the faithful think the language of the BOM is majestic. The current version seems to be acceptable to all. There is no need for a reference for this since it is self-evident upon even a cursory reading that the BOM is in Early Modern English and only people who know the grammar of EME well can tell that the writer was not fluent in EME. (Taivo (talk) 05:48, 17 November 2008 (UTC))
Página espejo de la Wikipedia
Directorio de Enlaces Directorio dmoz Directorio espejo dmoz Pedro Bernardo